ROUNDTABLE # 1

ROUNDTABLE # 2

( Conducted during February / March 2003 )

Well hopefully you have figured this out by now, someone throws out a topic and we all spit acid at it. I think the last one turned out pretty good and readers response to it was overwhelming with many requesting it become a regular feature and they were in luck because I planned for it to be such. Featured in this issue is myself ( Dale Roy ), Jeffrey Kusbel ( needs no introduction ), Bob (B.C. for short is the former editor of the mighty Direct Action Fanzine which was around from the early 90s until a couple years ago, now however he runs the absolutely essential Jersey Devil Distribution and carries the most obscure and finest black/death on this filthy planet!! Do not take my word for it go immediately to the site and see for yourself: http://beherit02.cjb.net/ ), The immortal Keith Dempe ( my mentor, a veteran who did his Eternal Darkness fanzine for over a decade, has done his label for almost that long and has an excellent distribution service as well, I am honoured to have him here and contact him at this Email holocaustofdarkness@hotmail.com ), Filip Jesion ( who is the editor of the juggernaut Agonia War fanzine, he also runs a promotional company, has recently started a label and is a tour promoter who has organized such tours at the “Goatguts Over Europe” tour and one going on as we speak featuring Gospel Of The Horns! He also runs the Canadian Assault website, what an amazing and busy metal motherfucker, just pure dedication to the scene, go to his label here: http://www.agoniarecords.dm.net.pl/ ), and last but certainly not least is the metal demon from hell in which we share this split issue with and that is Catherine Lachance ( editor of the alcoholicaust attack fanzine Leeather ‘N Spikes ) Okay this is already too fucking long so without further adieu be prepared to be amazed, enthralled, pissed off, offended and battered!! Not for the weak of heart or the hopelessly politically correct!  ~ Dale Roy



JEFFREY = I read an e-mail from a buddy telling me how he watched a show on Headbangers Ball last night and they were talking about reviving it. Now there's a topic. How fucking lame that would be. We would get a full hour of Mudvayne, Slipknot, and all that lame new millennium hair rock mixed with a bunch of old vids from the bands that were cool in when they were young like Prong, Anthrax, Suicidal Tendencies....that way they could look cool to all the kids that would be watching that garbage. And they would probably still play Nirvana!! In the words of my buddy Justin: "Danzig should have thrown Riki Rachtman into that fireplace". Comments anyone?

B.C. = Oh christ..you opened up a can of pissed-off black metal worms with me! I HATE DICKy Rachtman and always have. He is such a spineless poser. Remember when he had poofter hair and gay clothing? Then when 'grunge' became popular and he cut his hair short, he looked like he stuck his finger in an electric eels ass? And he wore those gay gas station attendant shirts with someone else's name on it? You know the kind I'm talking about! You see them all the time on these faggot punk rockers who buy them at the thrift stores to cover their unwashed festering sleazy bodies. Everyone who wears them, if you are reading this right now, douse yourself in gasoline and BURN YOURSELVES NOW!

Jesus, this rant is taking off like a 7-headed demon snapping in all directions at whimpering human waste! Nowadays if Dicky starts headbangers ball, or as I used to term it, 'dicksuckers ball', or 'cockslappers ball' he will be licking the collective ass of the cock-rockers of today. You know who I mean, slipknot, mudvayne, papa roach or any of those other fucking ass-slapping fags. I read one time where slipknot said they had influences from black and death metal! And they likened themselves to black or death metal music more than anything! Hahahahaa!!!! Those assholes wouldn't know death/metal if it came by and blasted their fat heads off! Have they ever heard Antaeus? How about Clandestine Blaze? Funeral Mist? They probably spend their days wanking it to Dimmu Borgir, Cradle of Filth, or those other boy bands. I'm sorry, but any band with a FUCKING SCRATCHBOARD has NOTHING TO DO WITH METAL!!!! Who wants to listen to that nigger shit? I keep going further and further underground. Metal was never meant to be on MTV, never meant to be accessible or easy to find in your local Sam Goody or whatever fucking big chain record stores there are nowadays that inflate the fucking prices of their CDs. I swear, just when I think I've become so complacent about life's annoyances something comes along to stir up and flay open old wounds.

Though when I get done writing this, I will simply lapse into a calm, dull hatred. The kind that is systemic..that flows through me every day of this hell of life. And all in all, anything that stirs hatred in a way is good for me. It will all lead me to inevitable rage that will likely end my life. Still it does not make me wish anything less than death on all big-label, jewish-owned cock-stars and MTV. Just an aside: OZZY OSBOURNE and his whole family should be gassed! His bitchy wife, his fat-cheeked whore of a daughter, and his gay-looking son. Tell me that kid isn't a faggot! Look at his glasses!!! That whole show makes me sick. I can't even say anymore of it, because my brain doesn't conjure enough words right now to express its mass-marketed faggotry.

JEFFREY = The pathetic lapse of Ozzy's dignity (though after seeing his show I highly doubt he possessed it in the past anyway) and rise to super stardom is a whole different topic. That little whore of a cunt daughter of his.....fucking getting famous on the merit of her abilities to sing a Madonna song. Fuck, I'd like to see her snuffed. She acts like she is completely in her own world and "punk" or whatever the fuck the little bitch is dressed up as but she might as well be on stage with Britney Spears every night. That cunt of a son hits even closer to home with me. Were any of you that gay when you were 17? That little ponce prances around in his Down hat listening to his Meshuggah cds and then tries to sign the gayest bands on his label. I'm not jealous..really. I'd much rather build something up with hard work and integrity rather than be handed the resources and follow all the bands around like the little Ozzfest groupie....the one that no one likes but they have to be nice to because of his relations.

KEITH = I haven’t watched MTV in a LONG time, is Headbangers Ball still on? Are they STILL flogging that dead mule???? I don’t watch too much TV but I saw what MTV was like the last time I was in the hospital, these mind-numbed drug addicts with psuedo-psychological problems sat in front the that stupid television 24 hours a day watching MTV, so I decided to see what it was like, they play the same three or four videos over and over and over, and NOTHING even REMOTELY resembled metal, the hardest thing on there was a band called Queens of the Stone Age, more like Queers of the Modern Age...

The stuff that passes for “metal” these days is a fukking disgrace, someone told me recently to stop in a store at the mall called Hot Tropic or Hot Topic or something like that, for a laugh...so I did, what the fukk happened to the young generation? Even when I was fourteen I REFUSED to buy clothes at the mall, any self respecting kid would go to the Army Navy store to buy pants and socks and bought their shirts through the mail, now they have Dipshit Burger shirts and Gayhem shirts for $25 a piece? Why not just go to a fukking Madonna concert and buy your shirts there (she’s more extreme than Dipshit Burger and more manly anyway)...what the HELL! Also I hate the feeling I get when I walk down the street and I get passed by these young gothphag kids and they looks at me, the way I’m dressed, and I know they are thinking-”Isn’t that guy a little old for Slipknot dude?”, fukk...bands like that, like this band Static X with the guy with the hair that stands striaght up and the other guy in the band that wears Sadistic Intent and Morbid Angel shirts, these idiots give REAL metal a HORRIBLY tarnished reputation, they also sell REAL underground metalheads SEVERELY short...

I heard that the reason that Slipknot has these pseudo pentacles on their covers as opposed to authentic ornamentation of ritualistic satanism, is because if they did put the sabbatical goat or the inverted REAL pentagram on their cover they couldn’t get it mass marketed to the mall shops, if this is true they are even bigger pussies than I thought!!! Remember back in like 1987 and 1988 when Headbangers Ball was between hosts? The old one was that douchebag that looked like the girl I liked in 8th grade, with chest hair, I think his name was Adam Curry and before Ricky Dicky came onto the show, they had people from the metal community host the show? I remember when King Diamond hosted it, it must’ve been around the time Them came out because he had that fukked up makeup on, thats what they should’ve kept doing, but grunge would’ve inevitably led to an equally homosexual host...Ricky-the-trendjumping-idiot-someone-should’ve-shot-in-the-face-with-a-double-barreled-shotgun-Rachtman I mean...

FILIP = I have to say it was really nice when I could watch with my friends clips of Slayer, Kreator, Sodom, Sepultura and others on Headbangers Ball. But It was like a few years back. I have never been a fan of the program or anything like that but I remember that along with the real metal monsters they always broadcasted some garbage bands like Nirvana and others… It’s easy to notice that each of so called ‘metal’ show in the official/commercial TV have had some shitty bands in its menu and that’s reason why I do not care about it anymore. These are not underground TV station, hahaha… Once they had Nirvana or Metallica – because they were cool. They’ll have Korn because that’s cool now. The only thing I am afraid is that they would not revive the show because of the old metal clips that are hard to see in public TV now, but just to have more room to put in heads of kids of today what to spend their parents money on…

DALE = I have seen some tapes of the Euro Headbangers Ball show and Filip it is safe to say your version was more extreme and heavy. Being that I am from Canada, at least back in the 80s/early 90s we did not have MTV in Canada but we had our own version of it called Muchmusic. Their metal show was called “The Power Hour” and while they had wimp bubble gum videos on there like Cinderella, Poison etc…It was kind of a 50/50 thing where they also played stuff like Celtic Frost, Venom (a staple of the show), Forced Entry, Dark Angel, Judas Priest, Infernal Majesty, Kreator, Razor, Iron Maiden and then later in the early 90s they played stuff like Morbid Angel, Morgoth, Unleashed, Carcass, Death etc…

So I got a taste of what you guys are talking about but it sounds as if our show was vastly superior in content. Not surprising considering the money driven trend making intent’s which has always been the mainstay of MTV. I agree with Jeffrey if they brought back Headbangers Ball for every Dismember or Accept (I may even be optimistic here?) video you would have to sit through 100 fucking Slipknot, Limp Bizkit, System Of A Down, Korn not to mention they would slip in stuff like Eminem, Rage Against The Machine and Biohazard and other wigger garbage. I seen an Email petition like a year or two ago from metalheads trying to get people to sign it to revive the show, do they not see what it would be if it came back? We do not need MTV for anything and I loathe there even being a show on that channel with a name that has connections to metal!



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DALE = I often find myself fantasizing about some mass disaster which causes the loss of 90 to 95% of all human life, with myself (of course) as one of the survivors. Sure I would have to learn how to live without many of the conveniences I am used to but I could learn to grow my own food and there is a whole empty world full of batteries and portable generators so I would still have my metal to listen to! Does anyone else find this idea enticing or is it just me? A virus ala “The Stand” would do nicely.

FILIP = Dale, are you fucking mad??? (YES! ~ Dale) Is it a provocation?? Hahahahaha… Oh, I think lots of people could think of things like that when we’re all facing the new War with a couple of fuckheads behind the desk: Mr Saddam & the whole comunistic shitheads from Red Korea… I do not think about survival. I could fucking die just to shoot all those bastards… I am sorry it turns its direction in politics but: so called civilized world (USA & EUROPE…) let the ulcer grow on its own ass… And who the fuck let it grow? The very few masochist who have had power to onanise theirself staring at the ulcers grow… That’s cash… Well, kill’em all. If I’d survived I’d like to save my record collection + would be nice if there were at least a few nicer girls saving from the mass disaster together with me. Oh, one pub would be also cool. I can chase chicks, listen to metal and drink even radioactive alcochol, hahaha… Oh, and I forgot about coffee. Dale!!! We need coffee. I can even drink a one with gas mask. So, if I am not killed in a mass disaster these are things I’d like to have together with me.

DALE = Coffee is my drug. SEX, COFFEE & METAL!!!

B.C. = Truthfully it is kind of a depressing thought. I guess it depends on how you look at it. I certainly would not want some nuclear strike like many black metal bands supposedly may. The ground and everything would be more contaminated than it already is. I would however like there to be a lot less people. I've often thought it would be nice to say, kill every third person you see on a daily basis. But this is obviously not practical. And you can't have everyone doing this, it would only have to be as your appointed executioner :) Because with someone else doing it, they are bound to kill someone I may care about..few as that number may be.

HOWEVER, I do think that places like the entire middle east should be annihilated, STARTING with israel, those fucking troublemakers. And of course ALL ghettos need to be burned to ash, without any doubt. That would be a GREAT start, am I right? Yeah, you're right, this idea IS becoming more enticing! I have always wanted to grow more of my own food and you could live a less capitalist monetary-controlled existence. But how would we preserve all producers of that which is GOOD in society and rid the world of the contaminants? Hmm..questions questions.... I believe our fate is to suffer and make good with what we have and discard the impurities and filth that plagues our own lives simply by ignoring it. Oh to taunt me with such dreams of a purer less-populated world....Dale, you are a cruel man you!

KEITH = Remember in Dawn of the Dead? What fun could be wrought at just the Monroeville Mall, all the one guy had to do was off the brutha, the bitch and the douchebag who couldn’t shoot straight and he’d a been home free... Just on Monday I told my psychiatrist that he could probably lower my tranquilizer dosage if all the other people on this earth would drop dead....ah yes, it is to dream, but unfortunately the way things are going with Napolean W. Bush and Iraq we’ll ALL be dead of a virus this time next year...WHEN (not if, I am convinced) smallpox is unleashed into the Western world once again, I myself, am going to walk to the center of town and take the biggest breath I can and go to the nearest mosque and let air out of every orifice I can...Fukk this cursed planet... What I and every other person on this panel (plus Liam, Fenris and Bernie to keep things fun and exciting) should do is drop some acid, spin some Beatles records, kill some white pigs, start the Helter Skelter War and then retreat to the bottomless pit with Exterminance (oh yea, Bob, Exterminance asked you to bring the “Black Katharsis” 12”!!)...oops someone did that already... We could learn a lot from ole Uncle Charlie...”Do somethin’ witchy, and have a nice day!”!!!!!

DALE = O’ Keith Extra Old Stock, that is a good thought on Dawn Of The Dead, but would you not keep the bitch around to bang and make dinner? I mean I know she was pregnant but you could get rid of that and I am sure there was birth control in the drug store of the mall. If not or if you ran out, you could just poke her between the butt cheeks or keep throwing the babies you do not want off the mall roof. “Hey walking dead people, come get your zombie snacks!”. Oh yeah and Keith on the Ebola and Smallpox, did your mom not teach you to “breath no evil and always eat your lima beans!”

JEFFREY = Well Dale, we both know we have fantasized about this many, many dark nights. That's funny that you mention the batteries. That thought really shines light on your metal core. I'm not sure about the whole Stand scenario though. I think all the corpses would start to bother me after a while. I've always wanted to personally experience the western frontier back in the 1800's before us human scum ruined everything and completely drilled the native Americans in their asses. Think about it, the native Americans had it all. They were honestly able to enjoy life and all the planet had to offer without the hindrance of technology. They led simple lives and were very able to explore the spiritual side of existence. Something which most of us have completely lost sight of in our bullshit rat race culture.

Being spiritual to most people is something you read about, see in movies, or possibly experience while going to church. HA! Give me a fucking break. Even most religious believers don't understand the spiritual and very intense writings in the bible. That wasn't just the bible...that was man. Once. Socrates, Nietchze, Plato, even Salvador Dali possessed intellectual strengths and wisdom that most people will never know. Why do you think that most "art" is almost a joke these days? Anyway, living alone on the planet would eventually get boring and I'm sure I would turn to drugs or alcohol to whittle away time until it killed me. Kind of like I do now I guess.. to a small extent. Now if I had women to "interact" with, I'm sure I would live long and prosper as I raised a whole new race of man. I'd make sure they stayed away from the animals this time though...hehe.



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CATH = Real Fanzines vs. Webzines, what are your comments?

JEFFREY = As I currently and have been doing a printed zine for some time now, I think it's obvious which I prefer. I like the web mainly to keep in contact with as many people as possible, as frequently as possible, and most importantly at my own leisure. This whole roundtable is a perfect example of leisure and convenience. It would never fall together correctly without the internet. Could you imagine scribbling this thing on pieces of paper and mailing them to and fro? I know Keith would fall out of the race on that one! ha! I really don't visit websites that often. If I do, it is almost always to order something or to check out current and up to date news. Also, porn. Research of course....nothing beats browsing web sites to research old band interviews vs. digging through stacks and stacks of ancient zines. That can be a pain and I only recommend that in times of heavy nostalgia. My attitude is similar with MP3s as well. I'll listen to them to hear a new band or decide whether I'd like to distro something but other than that, I own way more than enough tapes, cds, and vinyls that I don't need to bother with MP3s.

B.C. = I must say that I prefer the actual print fanzines to webzines. My eyes start to burn if I stare at a computer screen for long enough to read a fucking interview! Plus I can take a print zine anywhere with me, read it at work during lunch, kicking back on my bed blazing some black metal songs, etc. Webzines have a place, as the information is quickly gathered rather than tearing your room apart looking for that old Vlad Tepes interview you read once! Printed 'zines take much more thought, time and dedication. Any poser black metal fag can start a webzine, but are they dedicated to spend the constant hours of sometimes frustrating work compiling a real zine?

KEITH = I think everyone on this panel who knows me so well, the fact that I can barely figure out these goddamned contraptions enough to send emails, which I prefer...It is truly a product of this modern age that everything is so easily accessed by just turning on your computer and logging on to the internet, although I am not one to preach, with wearing a hole in my right hand thanks to free internet pron sites... but I ask, is it better? I MUCH rather look at a zine that someone put their heart and mind fully into....Its like Cath said in the interview with Dale in Canadian Assault, I think it was addressing cut and paste xerox zines vs pro zines....the same applies here, a zine should be like your old denim jacket with the vomit stain on the front, your Slaughterlord patch on the back and some boogers on the sleeve....rather than some slick black leather jacket that is polished so much you’re blinded when it catches th light...fukk yes real fanzines, for CERTAIN, plus you’re eye goes gaga looking at webzines trying to read the interviews (much like they did in my old issues with my print that was 5 angstroms high-HAHA). Like I said about being a product of the modern culture, something else about the ease of computers bothers me...

I am a role playing game/wargame nut for 21 years and counting.... NO ONE it seems plays with books and paper and dice the way it was meant to be, everyone plays these computer role playing games and it INFURIATES me!!! I’ll never have a brat of my own to screw up, but if I did have a child he wouldn’t be allowed NEAR video games.... We have enough to worry about with the imminent threat to our sanctity of our freedom as a nation with the situation in Korea, the impending war with Iraq, Kylie Monogue becoming popular once again in the states, and so on, without worry about kids growing up not being able to read, but having incredible hand-eye coordination.... What are we looking for in the next generation? A populous made of intellectuals or a populous made of basketball players, we pretty much have the latter already so I guess that answers that for me....

DALE = Real print fanzines hands down. There is something intangible and undescribeable about print zines that webzines will never touch and never be able to reproduce. I do look at webzines but if I find an interview or an article I want to read, I cut ‘n paste it into word and print it out and read a hard copy of it, I think that in and of itself sums up my position on webzines. I will admit for current news and links with access to immediate information webzines are very useful. I see webzines as being merely an electronic flyer for the print fanzine that should accompany it. Having said all of that I think if you cannot afford to do a print zine, your heart is in the right place. It is better to do something for the scene than nothing for the scene.

FILIP = As far as webzines are good and informative; with honest opinions, in deep interviews and with reviews written with good taste and class, I have nothing against it. I do agree there’s a lot of shit in internet but same comes to printed/xeroxed fanzines. If the content of either fanzine or webzine is good I have nothing against. The other thing is a shape: paper & online: one can prepare other one online but I think both have it’s advantages and disadvantages. It’s ten times better to take a ‘real’ fanzine on your trip just to read this piece of shit in your spare time than to take your pc, hahaha… But when youre surfing online searching for some massages, reviews or quick stuff – there’s always good to find a good webzine than big mainstream portal.. According to me: both are important. Time is changing – we have to kill on both fronts.



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JEFFREY = Why do people like us who listen to metal or perhaps dress out of the ordinary (which is pretty absurd when you compare wearing spikes and leather to the baggy pants and wallet chains style that permeates today's youth) carry the stigma of violence? I was watching a show on riots the other night...sports related riots around colleges in the US that involved upper class well to do fucking spoiled rich brats. Another example, Woodstock 99 or whatever year that was. Regardless, it was a joke. A corporate sponsored shameful event destroyed by senseless rioting once again by middle and upper class sheep. I read in the paper the other day that some kids attacked Moby because "Eminem doesn't like him". How sad is that? I'll tell you, it's hardly worth wasting my time on but unfortunately this is the garbage that surrounds us every moment of our lives. The flesh that basically "control" the majority of the earth. I like the Arabs. At least they focus on thought rather than convenience and comfort. They just need to focus more on what they have like their women and their religion (which is their scapegoat for everything they do) and less on what they don't have like our money and power.

B.C. = You bring about some very valid points here. I think the main difference is that we OPENLY promote violence. BUT it is not pointless violence led by some loud inane idiots. It is constructive violence. We are like watchers of the world's downfalls, reaping the benefits and letting the fucking morons take each other out. I personally would love to believe that our violent thoughts and imagery somehow contribute to this violent energy in the air that makes fools do each other in. Something like Astral projection, where our energy is manifested into a real physical force, without us getting our hands dirty so to speak. Though I'm merely dreaming and wishing it were so! The truth is we wear violent imagery everyday. We listen and live and breathe and scream it. It is a necessity as a defiance against the huge percentage of the world we could absolutely annihilate if we really acted upon it. Black metal is in our blood, therefore so is the inherent dormant violence and glorification of Death. The reality of course is that it is not the 'metalheads' who are causing this violence. Most of us are intelligent enough to think before we act and channel our aggression into something more beneficial, productive or cathartic. I can't help but be completely in awe of the stupidity of these fucking ignorant sports fanatics who, when their team loses, cause extensive riots and damage their own towns and venues for these events.

These people should clearly be wiped off the planet with swift and barbaric force. I HATE jocks and always have. I wish they would all commit suicide of a drug overdose or something. Regarding the kids who attacked Moby, whoever he is, that is fucking stupid. Eminem should be the one who is attacked by betraying his race and helping lead other middle class whites down the same path of self-hatred and depletion of intelligence. That sickens me. But beating someone up because someone says you should or whatever is so fucking stupid. It is why I hated all those assholes in high school, mostly jocks and niggers. Violence if done, should be done for a reason. Were i to commit violence, it would be done on a grand scale and would be done in a clandestine way so as to not be traced back to me. It is the prison system that keeps me from doing any of these things mainly. In order to change the kingdom, one must kill the king. And that is impossible to destroy the power structure that controls all laws and such. You mentioned the Arabs, I have to agree with you. And to expand on that point, can you really blame them for what atrocities they have wrought upon this nation? Bin Laden made it extremely clear that these attacks against us were motivated by our continued alliance with israel. This is a race of 'people' who drove 800,000 arabs out of their homes and butchered their wives and children in front of them. Is that not cause for someone to be stirred to violence?

The bottom line is that israel are inherently a greedy loathsome race of insects, and should be exterminated. And we back them and sponsor their legalized torture? I love how everyone knows of the 'facts' of German atrocities against these yids, but who knows of the terrors wrought by former Prime Minister, Menachem Begin? That was ethnic-cleansing as you've never heard of it. But as always, I have strayed far from the point. Those aligned with the true forces of black/death metal are always ready for war, but only the foolish are reactionary and end up in jail. The rest of us try to cope with it all and witness destruction from afar of those who generally deserve it. Human death and pain is reward for our suffering in this world of mindless idiots and those who seek the destruction of our once-beautiful planet.

DALE = I am with you guys, out of thousands of Metal concerts (large and small) you will find little to no violence. Compare that though to the MTV crowds or hardcore shows and you come back with vastly different results, yet it is us that receive the bad wrap on this. As metalheads we do embrace hate and violence, however as Bob mentioned we are so in touch with our violent sides that we only exercise it when absolutely needed or in an intelligent way in which we ensure that it counts and I think by not dirty our hands, Bob means we are smart enough to wash the dirt from our hands and erase all traces they were soiled so to speak. Unlike these mindless preppy MTV kids (including ones that are not really kids are closer to 30 years old than to 17), who exercise violence in an neanderthal fashion, mindlessly destroying property and gang up with superior numbers on people, the “new” Woodstock things a few years back is a good example.

So was the Fat Tuesday celebration in Philadelphia a couple years ago which resulted in the same thing, college kids destroying cars and property because they are idiots and have never had to work for any possession or accomplishment in their life. Metal is about violence and rightly so! Blind fanatical following of any religion is a sign of mental weakness, but to follow up on Bob’s comment I agree what we have done with our constant interfering in the middle east, our support of Israel should be revoked immediately. We have created much of the problems over there or at least intensified everything. This country’s greedy capitalistic ways all over the world and it’s foreign policy brought upon all of this hate towards us and anyone who says anything different is brainswashed or has their own agenda in doing so.

KEITH = To quote Billy Milano, and I hate to do that so early in the morning but “Fuck the middle East, there’s no use in trying, we’ll Kill em all and have a ball and end their fukking crisis!”, Jeffrey, I love ya brother, you know that, but YOU THINK TOO FUKKING MUCH!!! I guess that is one of the curses of youth, I used to do the same thing....I see absolutely NO USE in surrendering or being willing to surrender my life for ANY philosphy or religion, which is what you said prettty much, but most Al Queta members that I’ve heard of don’t spend much of their time in “secluded meditation”, they are too busy running the kiosk at the mall that sells chains with a 4 inch gold pot leaf on them.... Plus they have the right idea when it comes to women...subjugate the bitches! If the bible is to be believed whatsoever, it said in Revelation that in the end times, the women will drink the blood of the saints...which, metaphorically at least, is what these feminist kunts are doing right now...well I am getting off the subject...

Concerning the stigma of violence, I AM PROUD to have that stigma, although I do not want to be associated with upper class trust fund babies, which in a black denim jacket with a goat head on the back and, as I said early, boogers smeared on the sleeve, is doubtable...but the people I learned about metal from, namely the Phoenix metal militia, Violence is what its all about...fukk the black metal lifestyle of intellectuallistic artphag types playing tooty frooty “art”, that isn’t what metal is about to me... metal is about feeling a surge of blood rush to your head when you’ve just heard “At Dawn They Sleep” for the 15th time in a row, grabbing your baseball bat and going to “have a chat” with your deadbeat neighbor... Violence and metal go hand in hand.... I’m sure Ihsahn would diagree with me anymore, while he stays at home, being the misanthropic dark soul he is, masturbating to gay porn and pontificating on the meaningless mortal coil we are all trapped in...FUKK THAT!!! Don’t think about it,go out and teach your enemies a lesson in violence they won’t soon forget...but then I’m not a good example because I’ve been in the Western Psychiatric institution 5 times since August...what I should say is, teach them a lesson in violence they won’t soon forget but conceal your identity so you don’t get caught, there thats better...

JEFFREY = I think too much? Keith, I always hear people say that but I honestly don’t think it’s possible to think too much. I was not thinking enough actually when I said
they should focus more on their religion. I meant that they should be serious about it if they believe in it so much. Y’know, like a monk, Buddha..whatever. It’s all bullshit but they act like fucking hypocritical piles of walking and breathing monkey shit when they use their religion to war with each other for centuries and then do the same when others interfere. I hope you also realize that I am quite proud of being a violent soul because it is clearly part of me. I always think before I react but sometimes I just don’t give a fuck if someone calls me a knuckle dragger for reacting too swiftly or delivering a very well deserved smack! Violence is what unites us in metal! Sometimes being the intellectual misanthrope is where I want to be as well. As a matter of fact, I NEED that.

As you know 100% Keith, life needs to be pondered and put back together piece by piece sometimes. Otherwise a string of insanity ensues. As for ALL of the Arab nations. I don’t think a single one of us would cry if they suddenly all disappeared. Yes, we are conniving and full of shit but not as much as they are. Let em fight us. They won’t win. Even if they did introduce us to smallpox all over again, they still won’t have won anything. They will have just compromised..which is all they can do as witnessed by even more recent suicide/murder attacks. When you corner a wild animal, does it simply bend over and expose it’s anus? No, it fights tooth and nail to it’s dying breath. It’s too fucking late to say we don’t need to be over there. We fucked up too long ago on numerous occasions. Keith, quit talking about boogers. I’m a clean freak (ask Dale) and I’m strongly considering asking you to leave your jacket outside if you ever visit me! Haha!!



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FILIP = Talking about internet porn, don't you think guys that the websites with 'instant' access one have to pay to cover watching their porns, pics and shit is screwing customers up? To transfer them cash from bank account cost quite a lot considering that money transfer for just - let's say - 5$ - 10$ costs like 40$........ Isn't it a kind of rip off?? Another thing with regards to porn - I am really surprised that porns on CDs are not that popular in the States - the land of mass development!!! Do not you think it is much easier and better to watch porns on your PC from simple CD than watch it from video? I think not letting grow the CD - porn - watching 'culture' is a kind of rip off too!

CATH = Get them on paper! Whatever if it’s a magazine or a newspaper, isn’t it better to have your own real-paper mag? Real paper, much more real than just digital 72 dpi pics. And you can choose directly from a vast choice of perverted publications, you pay directly to the clerk looking at you with doubt in his eyes, you don’t have to pay by distance, it’s all the old traditional hey-let’s-drive-to-this-sex-shop-habit.

JEFFREY = Ok Filip....you obviously spend a lot of time looking at porn... I'm not sure exactly what you mean about the money transfer but I do know that instant access is bullshit. Who the fuck wants to pay $5 to look at a site for an hour or whatever and then remember to call the company and cancel within the next 2 days before your account gets charged $40 or so. My buddy Josh used to be a porn addict and therefore racked up quite a bit of debt with numerous porn sites simply because he forgot to cancel before the trial period ended. Yes, porn is a rip off. Never pay for it!!!! CDs? Well, it's big on DVDs and most people have DVD Roms in their pcs these days so I guess that pretty much takes care of that market. I do store all my personal porn on cds though. Would you like me to send you some Filip? I'll trade you porno for some copies of the new Agonia. ha!

B.C. = Ahh..one of my favorite topics....porn! It is an essential part of day-to-day life. Regarding the sites, I refuse to go to anything that says "Take free tour" etc...there is nothing good there and they try to rope you in for some cheap $4.95 for 3 days access or something. What they don't tell you is how much of a pain in the arse it is to try to cancel. And if you forget? You're fucked and not in a good way! Those things are expensive as balls. Among my favorite free sites would be http://ampland.com or http://thumbnailpost.com They have links to even more free sites with loads of hot photos. Jeffrey sends me some great links all the time and my friend Bill always seems to find ways of getting shit for free. Or of course (and I know Dale would agree with me) for one of the best sites with free pics of one of the hottest porn stars ever-Christy Canyon: http://www.bomis.com/rings/ bestofchristy/ Look at those luscious tits..what I would call "all day suckers".

I would stick her six ways from Sunday! I despise fake-breasts!!!! I'm not saying that large breasts are essential (or am I?), there are beautiful women with smaller breasts, but damn, don't make yourself look plastic and hideously false and unattractive. I would rather see a woman with small natural breasts than some inflated-balloons on her chest. Pathetic! Real ones feel soo good, why would anyone want to mess with that? I don't really think I'd like the porn on CD thing as much as videos. I'm much more comfortable on the couch and it's much easier to slow things down, pause scenes and see beautiful imagery of gorgeous women on a large screen. True, videos can be expensive, ESPECIALLY the good ones (http:// lezlovevideo.com) but well well worth it. Now porn on DVDs..what a fucking blessing! Now you can skip the boring scenes fast as fuck and that's perfect when time is limited but you're horny as hell! To conclude...free porn is attainable for those horny and perverse enough to spend time looking!:)

DALE = I have never paid for internet porn either, not that I have not been tempted, there is this site with nothing but amazing voluptuous women with hairy cunts and huge all natural tits and let me tell you…uh…nevermind. I am not against having porn on CDRs but it is rare that I come across any on that format (and Jeffrey I may be wrong but I believe Filip is talking only about porno movies and clips and not just pics as I think you may think?) but the stuff that I do have unless it is broken up into each scene being a separate clip is a bit frustrating as Bob is wholly correct in saying it a major pain in the ass if you like to jump around in scene’s like I do because it takes a monstrous amount of RAM on a computer if it is a full movie that is say an hour or longer in length.

DVD porno’s rule but I only have a couple right now, my video collection on the other is a whole other story, in other words it is extensive and the amount of wrist muscle I have built up watching them over the years is also extensive haha…Getting back to it if there was an honest site with killer content I would not be opposed to paying a reasonable price for it but the fact that you cannot download it onto say a DVD or video tape, makes it all not worth it for me. Oh hell yes Bob you are right Christy Canyon may be the best big tit goddess of our time, she makes the south (pole) in my pants rise again and again!

KEITH = YOU HAVE TO PAY TO WATCH INTERNET PORN?!?!?! Man I have a site for you all (and Dale please excuse the product endorsement) but www.shemp.com, they fullfill ALL of my porno needs (which are EXTENSIVE indeed) and I never paid for shit!!! In the states you have to pay for your garbage, your water and probably with the new governmental budget, the air we breath...pornography isn’t a privilege, it is a god given right!!! You have the right to remain silent, the right to have a lawyer present during questioning, and most of all the right to beat your meat to DEATH (if you will it) watching fat white girls get degraded while being sodomized by some brutha’s 14 inch roll of tarpaper!!! FUKK YES! I have NEVER paid for porn on the internet.... I am a sick demented pervert but everyone at my credit card company doesn’t need to know that I have a fetish for overweight forty year old women in stockings and high heels (oops, I guess I sort of left that one out of the bag)...That’s the way I feel anyway.... About watching porn on Cds on your computer, that’s great foe yo rich white folk, but us po’ niggaz gotta second generation hand me down antequated Gateway computer, that gets overloaded when I try to load a fukking screen saver! On the PC or on the VCR, a slut getting fukked is a slut getting fukked...nuff said!!!!!

JEFFREY = AMEN Rev. Keith! Except for that tarpaper comment, sick!



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DALE = What is your opinions on a seeming new trend where so-called “black” metal bands have dreadlocks and wear corpse paint with them (i.e. – Dark Funeral, Anorexia Nervosa etc…)?

KEITH = First off, there is a black metal band named after an eating disorder? That’s fukked up in itself!! I read in an interview that Dark Funeral’s biggest influences are Von, Christblood, Bestial Summoning, and Ziggy Marley and the Melody Makers...that’s about right...Negro culture is infiltrating and attempting to infiltrate EVERY aspect of “so called” white culture.... Its fukking wrong, plain and simple....this used to be OUR kult!! In that late 1980’s and early 1990’s there was only a VERY few and SELECT black metal and black/death metal bands wearing corpsepaint, it was ritualistic, it truly was a “kult”, now fukking rap metal bands wear corpsepaint and neCRAPolis records uses the word “kult” to describe every band on their mailorder including Slipknot....

In my opinion stuff you can purchase at the mall (of corpse including Dark Funeral) is not Kult and should not be used as synonymous with TRUE black metal...the new Mayhem shirts may say True Norwegian Black Metal, but they haven’t been “black metal” (as all of you know) in the time most of these new kids wearing dreadlocks and baggy pants, calling themselves black metal have even KNOWN that such a music exists... And for the older bands LIKE Dark Funeral who have been around for a much longer time than these new kids have, and are doing such things, it is beyond unforgivable, they are truly traitors to the cause and SHOULD be brought down as such...

JEFFREY = I just don't get it. Especially with Anorexia Nervosa...the naked little girl on their album cover...fuck, that was stupid. Dread locks, sneakers, jogging pants, even one of the guys from Kovenant was wearing a nike jumpsuit on stage in a magazine I saw once. On top of that he had plastic spikes around his arm! I always hoped 4 or 5 years ago that the black metal trend would die and it would go back into the ug. What happened though, I could never have imagined. Real idealistic and thought provoking black metal exists today but it is damn hard to find if you don't know what to look for. It makes me so fucking sick to be able to walk into any mall, find a Hot Topics and see Cradle of Filth and Dimmu shirts on the wall. Some of the little faggot, colored hair, teenage scum even wear their shirts when they are obviously completely oblivious to what is actually going on around them.

They are too stoned or fucking stupid to ever be able to assimilate what it is that drives people like me or any other fed up and full of hate individual. White devils. Thats just reality to me and for a few years there I really thought that most people would eventually start to come around and look at how scummy and pathetic the human race is. I spent a few years researching I guess and one day I just woke up and threw it all aside. The end. Ignorance is the order of the day for this lot of humans and so it shall remain. That's what black metal means to me. The thought behind every single note breathes an air of total disgust and hatred for us all. That is black metal. Fuck you if you can't see or feel it. It will be there staring you in the face one day very soon.

CATH = Black metal like any other styles in the past is being so much repeated than anything different added to it that follows the current trends is making it looks weird. Just like techno-Eurostile logos, in contrast with morbid spiked logos of past bands. Just like Adidas clothes and ski sunglasses, in contrast with black band t-shirts and bulletbelts. Some people know if they are in the scene and release albums under the black metal label, they will sell.

FILIP = I think it is really pretty stupid. But do not be worry about the trend. I give them yet maximum a year being in metal after this time they’ll turn into reggae music with their dreadlocks and stupid image. But hey, maybe it’s because they have a real need for pussy?!? Maybe black metal image wasn’t enough to hunt down any…

B.C. = Damn, Dale...you always know just what to ask! I FUCKING HATE that shit!!!!! I could have died when at the NJ Metalfest last year, the singer of Dark Funeral (R.I.P. in my opinion) came out on stage with those fucking braids! He looked like some nigger woman! Or like he got his hair styled down the street at 'Tamika's Hair Salon and Fried Chicken'! Anyone who spends that much time on their hair is obviously trying to gain popularity as being 'cool' or 'down' with the niggerization of musick, metal in particular. Why imitate a bunch of dirty spooks who used fucking animal shit to bind their hair together? I wish I could call for and initiate the extermination of ANY WHITE PERSON WHO WEARS DREADS! Especially in so-called black metal which is for WHITES! Black metal is not a fashion statement. The roots of black metal evolved from pagan cultures and darkness inherent in human beings who are more wolflike than sheep. Bastardizing it with any non-white influences is unacceptable.

JEFFREY = Necropolis carries Slipknot??? You have to be joking. I knew they were money grubbing fucking rim licking whores but that is above and beyond how low I thought they had gone. Go read my review of the Phobia record they released on their Earache want-to-be offshoot. I’m surprised they don’t make it mandatory to have dreadlocks to be on their label these days. Why did Incantation sign with them? Why..? Ditto Bob! I think we ditched in the middle of Disinter’s set to go see Dark Funeral and though it may not have set in right away we all felt it the next day. I know that much. Keith nailed that one as well, these bands that have been around for a while should be leading by example, not bowing to subhuman trends. Fuck, I hated that band for a while anyway. Especially since I read that they let their label name that gay mcd they released a few years ago. Lots of integrity behind that decision, right?



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KEITH = Do you think the current state of the metal scene which has lent a lot to the racial state of the 1980's extreme music scene ("life metallers" like Metallica and Testament on one side where there was a lot of racialist skinhead music also similarly with today's scene WITHIN just the metal genre there seems to be ns bands (as they have come to be called), there are bands that are vocally anti nazi and then there are those who just refuse to comment (i.e. "we are not a political band, the reason we have a swastika on our cover does not mean we are nazis..." and this sort of rhetoric) and seem to walk the line between the two... Do you think this current state of the scene has led to a more unified metal scene or as I think it has divided the scene into many many factions... I am a white separtist and even I am sick to death of reading message boards saying who is of European descent and whose not (as my esteemed colleagues here know I pointed out someone's "mixed" (to put it kindly) heritage once and got in a lot of shit for it-even though I know it to be a fact first hand... I think it has gotten out of hand, also what do you think of all of these bands that sing about national socialist ideologies in such a veiled way but stray away, and even flat out deny being an ns metal band, some for the sake of profit and some for the sake of themselves not getting thrown in prison by their respective countries' oppressive liberal regimes... What do you think?

JEFFREY = Keith, I know that you, like me, can't stand these children calling themselves NS any longer. Has it seperated the scene? I don't think so. A lot of these kids are coming over from punk backgrounds anyway so if anything they are just spreading the metal "scene" wider. If you ask me..and, well...you did, any person who is truly National Socialist or supremely racist in a non-bigoted redneck sense would be out doing something about it via violence (aka = the FIST) and not just whining or praising these acts on an album for all their buddies to buy. Otherwise, keep it to yourself. Live with it, deal with it but I don't want to hear it. I heard the guy from Kristallnacht recently stopped recording material as Kristallnacht since he no longer shares those feelings. So, perhaps in some cases....black metal related...an album can be fashioned out of pure hatred and disgust for another race or being but at the same time not be entirely focused on it.

This just brought to my mind one of the dumbest racism/music related things I've ever seen. On a bootleg of a white power concert I saw once....it was about 2 hours of racist bands spewing white power literature, praising segregation, and lynching and all that.and then at the end they all get together for a big group hug and have a fucking pathetic sing along for Ian Stuart (deceased vocalist of Skrewdriver). "We love you Ian Stuart, you were a white man to the end". I think some of them were even crying. Just the thought of this kind of bullshit being integrated into black metal minds and records makes me want to vomit. Fuck you.

B.C. = The scene has been very divided. But I think it kind of needed that. I for one, do not want to listen to some liberal pc garbage like that within the hardcore/grindcore scene. I know that you don't want this either, nor is that what you are saying. I was ecstatic when I first heard of NSBM. I thought, "It's about time." Because there were so many years of bands sidestepping the issue of race. Look at the way Darkthrone cowered back when they made a remark about jews or had "Norsk Arisk Metal" on their CDs. When I saw bands who openly used the Swastika and sang songs full of racial fury, I felt great about it. It took us all completely by surprise. Let's be honest, I think that MOST metalheads are inherently racist, and much of the anger of metal in general can probably be traced by being harassed by non-white scum during early years of development.

Once that "NSBM" label had been used, it seemed like a floodgate of suppressed racial views came RAGING OUT. That there was FINALLY a movement in the metal scene that was unabashadly WHITE and angry about the mixed world at large. I think the black metal scene today is more focused and driven, somewhat cause-oriented, and in some ways, united. I have always hated the 'metalhead' stereotype as a drunken, drug-addict rock star wannabe as I was never any of that. I think metal NEEDED this elitism and discipline. So you musn't forget that not only are these NSBM bands speaking out racially, they are also living more in accordance with the way intelligent people should be, and that is getting rid of the stupid crutches that many metalheads have i.e. drugs or alcohol, etc. I have always valued being clear-minded and completely taking life in its most hideous, raw, and horrible forms without hiding behind chemical substances. Most of my life from my teenage years on til now has been fucking miserable. This is not some bullshit tirade to say how 'horrible' my life has been. On the surface I have a good life, and I enjoy it much of the time. But there is something just not right within, something that is lost and certain feelings are forever tainted. The anger is what I often live on now, for happiness and idealism are but dreams drowned in reality. Where my mixed feelings come regarding NSBM is the 'future for white children', etc. I don't know that I care so much about that. In many ways, I wish my generation would be the last and humanity would simply fade out once I've lived my life. Selfish I know. Though breeding racially, environmentally, socially-conscious whites for the good of making this earth a better place would be nice. Imagine getting rid of crime, environmental pollution, and all other plagues of this modern world?

Though that is a dream that cannot be attained. There will always be turmoil, even amongst like-minded groups. I feel my beliefs lean toward misanthropy. Hatred of nearly everyone. Calling something "National Socialist Black Metal" is kind of strange. I would prefer it were simply called "National Socialist Metal". Black metal is barbarism, seemingly inspired by ravenous Pagan sects of old or warriors who had little regard for anything. There is something liberating about casting away all feeling except that of pure fucking hate and annihilation. National Socialism is more disciplined I think. I do believe in many of the things National Socialists believe in, but some things I think get kind of restrictive, such as saying pornography is 'evil' etc. White Separatism is a beautiful idea, and I'd love someday to see it work. To see if it could work. For even amongst White Separatists, there will be many factions. Regarding the bands denying their views or remaining quiet on the topic of NS, for some, such as in the oppressive ultra-PC government of Germany, stating boldly those beliefs will land you in prison, the last place whites should be. However, others in countries where that freedom to speak may be frowned upon but still 'legal' there is no excuse to hide from your beliefs. If you truly believe in NS, do NOT deny it and do not pretend you use the Death's Head symbol, Sunwheel, Swastika, etc. for any other reason but your devotion to that philosophy. My philosophy lies somewhere in the midst of all this. I am pro-white, but not 'political' in any sense. Though NS interests me and I have read about it and collect propaganda on it, I do not call myself NS. As with any label, any 'new' idea, there are bound to be loads of bandwagon-jumpers. Those who praise Hitler because 'gassing jews' is 'evil', or something stupid like that.

NS is NOT about being 'evil'! NS and Satanism have nothing in common. I think corpse paint should not be worn by NS bands either, as it is something to me that signifies total death, the worship of death. NS really is about life. WHITE life and the betterment of Europeans. And why is NSBM worshipped by those who are NOT white as well? That is truly idiotic. I have seen this with obvious orientals and mexicans, etc. I don't understand that at all. Perhaps it is like that story of that jewish nazi, who hated jews and himself so much, he wanted to become what despised his kind most? I'm not sure. But make no mistake, if you are not white and attend racialist shows, you better watch yourself! It's just like when whites attend rap concerts and get mugged or beaten. They deserve it! NSBM will always have a place I believe in black metal. I just wish that more people would seriously take the time to read about NS and find out what they are proclaiming. NSBM is not just something you pay big bucks on ebay..it is a lifestyle, a philosophy, it is your weapon.

FILIP = Personally, I do not like people who talk rather about what they’d do if they were X; or what X should do to follow only one possible way in because there’s no other. I simply hate fuckers who think that they keep the only knowledge: in politics, moral things, rules, religion… I think both: those who sing about ideologies and only about ideologies willing to prove that they founded a key to a truth and those standing on the other side and shouting at them that they’re bad – they are all shitheads. They are all stupid people. They are false even if they seem to be truth. So, be careful because they can unsuspectedly let down their followers.

DALE = Bob said so much in that answer and eloquently I do not have a lot to add to it. One thing this has done is helped shake the true metalheads from the chaff of social issue, love your brother pussies which it has always amazed me they would want anything to do with such a violent art form and way of life. Bob is also right that some intellectual discipline within the metal scene is something that is needed. Just like religious fanatics though this can be taken too far and the result can be counter productive, some elitism in a general way can be a good thing but numerous clique’s within that elitism is not what we need and I think this is crux of what Keith was getting at with his question. Now I have seen the video Jeffrey spoke of and I took away a whole other feeling from that show and that memorial.

I think they were hailing him for being true to himself and the cause he believed in beginning to end and went out like a man with honour and pride and stayed the course. If we are going to get into that do you not think a better example would be Chuck Shuldiner?! Sure I loved a lot of his music and am glad to have it in my collection. But that was worse bleeding heart than the video you mentioned, everyone was crying in magazines about it, putting on numerous shows in his name and I am sure there was some really sappy moments at those, I know Jeffrey got caught up in this during the first days after it got out that he died. I mean at least Ian Stuart had stood for a cause he believed, Chuck Shuldiner on the other hand just sang about social issues and wore I love cats shirts and spoke out against bands using violence against humans and animals etc… within their lyrics and in interviews. I know this seems a far off comparison but that was within the metal scene that that happened and the example Jeffrey brought up was more loosely related in my opinion. I am not attacking what Jeffrey said just throwing in a different view on the same situation as the band that did that was a hardcore band if memory serves.

JEFFREY = Bob, you bring to light an interesting opinion. All metalheads are inherently racist? I hadn’t really thought about it that way but you are probably right..in relation to extreme black and death metal anyway. I have never denied having extremely hateful feelings toward other races but I would never pigeon hole myself as a racist. I do not and have never felt that I could sum my life up in one word. Metalhead, racist, etc. I hate more what I see and deal with. You are correct. I do not like the majority of blacks I have ever met or come across. Most are filthy and ignorant. Even worse, they don’t care. It wouldn’t be so bad if it were just their problem but it’s not. They breed like the rats they most certainly are and are quickly becoming the main problem of this polluted “melting pot” population of our country and their own. In relation to metal, racism always carries strong feelings and an undying stigma of ignorance to most of the herd. As we all fully realize..just by some of the racist comments we have all typed for this column, myself and Dale will surely be shunned by some in the ug who wish not to address such issues regardless of whether they feel them deep inside or not. That is being truly pc. That Darkthrone record is a perfect example. “Transilvanian Hunger” would perhaps not be the classic it is hailed as today had the band not sent out statements denying the racist connotations of their bold comment. They obviously regretted it. How could anyone dismiss I wonder? If it said “Norwegian Aryan Black Metal” in big white letters would it still be accepted? I honestly don’t think it would be as accepted and readily stocked by every fucking label on the planet if so.

As for living a clean lifestyle Bob well, I guess Keith, and Dale for the last 10 years or so too, am I the only drinker here??? Anyway, you can’t have much of an opinion on it when you have never imbibed yourself ( Which I did and probably way too fucking much I might add for years ~ DALE ). If you are happy staying “clean” so to speak then that is great but drinking alcohol is not something I see as a crutch. If it was then I wouldn’t do it. I use alcohol and I enjoy alcohol and I enjoy alcohol..frequently. I have only presented myself in a stupefied manner a few times in my life (Dale witnessed one of them) but for the majority alcohol is as much an escape for me as metal or porn may be for you. Have you ever thought about that? The feeling you get from releasing that pent up load of hormonal seed is even more powerful than the addiction to crack cocaine one might wager. Try quitting and let me know how it goes. I always keep my wits about me, I have to. Once in a while even, marijuana lets me release my frustration and normal assessment of things and look at life the way it IS! You may not even realize it but we all tend to get so wrapped up in bullshit sometimes, the bullshit that makes life as is and what it’s hated for that we are blinded by our so called restrictions and inhibitions. Don’t get me wrong, hatred is always there, you can never stray from what you truly are (so I guess if you are inherently gay then you might end up in Cradle of Filth or something) but reflection and control are what is important. Not total abstinence.

If you made it this far and can survive without a razor to your wrists then keep things going as they are by all means but don’t put yourself on a pedestal just because you imbibe less than others. This isn’t actually even in direct response to Bob or anyone here actually but Bob, you got me rolling on an issue that gets on my nerves sometimes. Of course, there are drunk ass, scummy, drug using, invalids out there as well who deserve no respect. There is usually a reason for their addiction as well. Ignorance being among the top 3. My use of alcohol has little to do with comfort. I do disagree with hard drugs however. No, I have not personally used them and you might think that makes me a hypocrite for speaking against them in this same paragraph but I have seen many a person head down that road including some very close to me. It isn’t pretty and you can’t possibly be on hard drugs like heroin or cocaine and say that you are in control. I have had the effects of such drugs described to me in detail and being that far out of your mind is completely ridiculous. Thought is then obscured not enhanced.

DALE = This announcement was brought to by our fine friends at drunk-a-holics un-anonymous and Nikolai Vodka. Thank you very much.



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DALE = What do we do in school these days? I believe once upon a time we were educated and taught how to think for ourselves. It seems now they teach you how to think politically correct, how to not have your own opinions or philosophies, how to be a good little consumer robot so you can join the other cattle in the herd without disrupting the flow. People graduating these days are so dumbed down it just leaves me horrified. Maybe Jello Biafra is right about not being worried about human cloning as a new thing because it has being going on in our schools for decades now – thoughts?

B.C. = This is of course another sad fact that faces our country in particular. Part of the problem as I see it is kids now know how to program computers and yet do not know how to think for themselves. Common sense is almost non-existent. Still other kids are learning less and less how to fend for themselves. If you set these kids out in the forest by themselves, they would starve in a week, if they didn't kill themselves first. Humanity is falling due to taught/learned weakness and what could the future possibly hold that will be different? Political-correctness is something that is taught and rammed down your throats. The quote from Jello you mentioned indeed is sadly true. The herd runs where the herd leads. Acceptance and tolerance and political correctness are taught and THINKING is not. Look at the average students. Wiggers and little slutty Britney Spears wannabes! School has always been a fashion contest even when I was in high school. Let's just hope these little fuckers grow out of that by the time they get to college and waste their parent's money.

The most disturbing shift in the school's face has been what can only be called the 'niggerization' of it. Now I hate to keep bringing up spooks...remember I DO hate you all, but this is just sickening. It is in fashion to speak ebonics and try as hard as you can NOT to be an intelligent, free-thinking person. Niggers have always been the 'class clowns' simply because they do not know how to reason or learn anything. Thus by them making everyone laugh, their presence is justified. In turn, these little white faggots look up to them so as to avoid being beaten up, or simply because it's really so much easier to be STUPID. Who needs to be 'booksmart' or have common sense when you can simply dribble or throw a ball and make millions a year? Monkeys can do that!!! Fuck this world...I live as far from these things as I can. My mind is its own world...in its rises and falls and chaos and clarity. But alas it is MY OWN,

where I strive to learn as much as I can and associate with those of higher intelligence. We're all doomed...so enjoy the ride!

FILIP = I have no idea about education in the States or Canada but I can tell you that education in Poland is getting worser and worser. I am not telling of how they teach and what they teach. Generally speaking even during communism the rules were on one side and dedicated teachers kept on telling the truth. It is different now mainly because new generation of teachers is not enough qualified. Mainly mentally. People are equal. People have nothing to offer other people. The mainstream is boring but surprisingly so many people follow it. Are they blind or deaf? They all listen to the same music, wear same clothes, have same behaviours, read the same books, watch the same movies… They’re mainly bores. Same is in school: you have to be same as they are to be accepted.

KEITH = I agree with Jello Biafra, schools are churning out Jerry Brown clones faster than we can vacate governmental positions for them to inevitably get caught in a scandal and thrown out of... He is right, I haven’t heard anything since, well A LONG time ago that he has spoken out on the subject, but I DO KNOW myself what the major cause of this is, its the pervasive plague in contemporary society to teach, no make that FORCE our nation’s children to believe that the National Socialist German Worker’s Party of the 1920’s and 1930’s is inherently and systemically evil, but Malcolm X and Martin Luther King Jr are/were people worthy of your respect... That the “Native Americans” were innocently and unrighteously slaughtered like the Buffalo by the EVIL Europeans and the “American holocaust” (as I heard it called on PBS) of manifest destiny.... Basically teaching white kids to feel guilty of their Eurocentric heritage all the while empowering black children, telling them that, essentially, they have more of a right to live free and unencumbered by idotic inherited guilt....

I mean how many times can they tell our kids about George Washington Carver inventing the peanut?!!?!?!? Is it ANY wonder that White American kids try SOOOOO hard to look, act and BE like the Black kids? Its called Multiculturalism, and it is a sadistic form of abuse, just as if you told your children from day one that the sky is acutally flourescent orange and the reason they think it is blue is because they are an idiot...Schools have the most IMPORTANT job in society, to shape the next generation’s mind and what you learn before you are 12 is what you are going to think for the rest of their life....they’ve screwed the pooch on that one...They’ve screwed the pooch with a nuclear missile! Oh well, it was a good 200 year run anyway... Dale, can I go live with your parents? Canada is sounding REALLY nice...

JEFFREY = I know that you like myself Dale, have heard many stories of the bullshit they try to teach children these days. It's far worse than even when we were in school. Major corporations funding school projects and equipment for AD TIME? I'm sick of it. I'm so fucking sick of it. If it isn't enough that children see thousands of hours of commercials on television, at the movies, driving to the fucking mall, AT the mall, on their clothes, (I've even seem some extremely unintelligent looking "individuals" with Nike tattoos!) but now they have to sit through it at school?? You are so dead on about the overall mentality of kids graduating these days.....I don't have a degree though I know I could have one of my choosing if I were ready to make that decision but then I see half the people that walk around that have been supposedly "educated" by our system and they literally have their mouths hanging open and drool leaking onto their chins. It's that bad. Kind of makes you think twice about going to the doctor as you get older. Like you might want to put together your own little doctorate examination just to make sure, right? haha!!!

CATH = Oh, you’re right, all we do is paying too much and learning not to think by ourselves. I have been to school for some years now and continue unfortunately to study, even though the fees are terribly high. Which gives the opportunity only to rich people to go to University, and middle-class starts belonging to the ‘poor’ class, not being able to afford any higher studies. It’s a huge conspiracy, you need to lick the teacher’s ass to get good grades. Otherwise you do like me, you bleed yourself to death to get a weak 75%. You wouldn’t believe all we’ve seen and endured here where I study. And it seems it’s not the only place, it’s like that in many other fields of studying. It’s major brainwashing.

JEFFREY = Fuck Bob, you’re right. These wigger assholes adorn their gold chains and upside down visors in order to fit in and also to avoid being scorned or beaten by the bigger guys. Jocks and bruthas. Man, it’s like prison in some of the inner city schools these days. No kidding.



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JEFFREY = I don't think many people realize that what people like us try to do with zines is remove that stigma of "fan" and focus the attention more on DIY and ug support. Of course fanzines started with some little faggot fanboy following around the Beatles or whomever and scribing praise for them wherever they went and probably sucking their cocks as well. I agree with Jello Biafra when he says that DIY zines are one of the few things that punk gave the world.

B.C. = You're right about this. I always liked the title of a mainly punk 'zine from Philthadelphia called No Longer a (Fan)zine. Which basically took the 'fan' out of it. When I think of 'fan' I think of some wide-eyed, brainless leech who will practically faint if their heroes brush up against them, and will loom all over just to say, "You were the reason I...." (insert generic meaningless ass-kissing here). Fucking foolish. I prefer to think of it as an underground means of support, as WE are as important as the bands. Fanzines ARE an integral part of the underground, always have been, and hopefully always will be.

CATH = I don’t know, there are other zines existing for many different subjects other than music. I always found that kind of DIY projects very interesting, especially the way they are done. With collages, it’s almosst a form of art. Or maybe I’m exaggerating a bit.

FILIP = Once I was a child I always wanted to do a fanzine, haha… Well, I do agree the real zines are to support the real scene and unveil all cocksuckers and other homosexual intentions. Speaking about fanzines, I think that during last a couple of years we also can tell about something like: mainstream zines. Guys (kids…???) are receiving cassh from big(-er) labels for advertisements to cover costs of printing a ‘zine’. What you can find inside are bands from backover advertisement. It’s a pity there’s so many ‘zines featuring same bands, same reviews, same news: having just different names and covers (not even always in this case…).

DALE = When my opinion has already been more or less stated rather thoroughly I will not waste your time regurgitating the same thing over again. Please re-read the last 2 sentences Bob wrote above because I concur intensely. I think the DIY cut ‘n paste is an artform, HELL YES! Preach on comrade Dempe!

KEITH = I will agree that punk gave the world DIY zines, but MY zine has never given credence to such liberal fag praising garbage as Maximum Rock and Roll and all of the zines that preceeded it...in my mind the first zines were zines like the New Heavy Metal Review or Metal Mania (from San Francisco NOT the 1980’s version of Metal Maniacs that usurped the name)...saying diy metal zines got their “inspiration” from punk zines of the past is like (as idiot NON diy magazines like Terrorizer and Kerrang have done) giving people like fukking Robert Johnson credit for occultism in music or like giving negro music like the blues credit for the modern black metal movement... I truly believe that things can be simultaneously generated or even begin after something else is given birth to without one necessarily drawing credit from the other...I am sure many many people will disagree with me, but this is what I choose to believe and a belief I can rest at night with...if you give credence to the former notion that metal DIY zines have some form of credit to give to punk zines of the past, then go ahead and start listening to BB King records because you are actually giving credit to the notion that in SOME WAY he influenced bands like Bestial Summoning and Treblinka.... One can and DOES exist WITHOUT the other...

JEFFREY = Ok Keith, always ready for an argument right? Haha! Of course you’re opinion makes perfect sense and I have always hated when faggots like Chris Barnes talk about death metal being solely influenced by the structuring found in the guitar work in most early blues guitarists works. But then you are talking about a span of near 100 years in that case compared to only a few years in my suggestion (or Jello Biafra’s actually) when you think about the fact that the zine was big in punk before a real metal zine that anyone knew about ever surfaced. Some metal kid saw a punk zine and said “Hey, cool idea” I can take this format and use this new medium to spread my fascination with this sick music that I praise so highly. Enough said. No punk was integrated whatsoever. Just an idea. Sure zines existed before but never with an extreme form of musick like punk or metal. So hate the idea as you may it is probably true but as I have pointed out..so what? The super people to borrow the idea for their metal zines probably hated punk or they would have done punk zines right??? And never forget that Treblinka had a laid right out for all to hear ZZ TOP sounding riff in their 2nd demo Keith! I never did understand that.

DALE = This is all amusing for me, but a bad joke is a bad joke. ZZ Top riff, Jeffrey would this be one of those rare times when you make a drunken fool of yourself?



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DALE = It is truly amazing and cunning how immediately after 9/11 the government played on people’s grief, fear and sympathies while they were at their height by passing law after law under the guise of our protection, which destroys and circumvents the constitution completely. It leaves loop holes (no longer a need for reasonable cause, no need for search warrants, total rights to all our information online or on paper etc…) now which basically takes away all of our rights to privacy and gives the government total control. If the average person really read and analyzed the “Patriot Act” and the “Homeland Security” act they would not believe was has just been passed into law under their noses! As far as I am concerned the Constitution is now just a figurehead piece of paper with no weight or power, something akin to the Queen of England, she is just for show, she has no power any longer.

B.C. = Damn, that is a good point. I've heard stories of people's houses being searched without ANY cause or search warrant. Strange how even the Constitution now is simply overlooked or worked around and slowly new 'laws' creep into the picture. If we cannot look to the Constitution, something which has kept us somewhat protected, what can we do? 'Tragedies' like 9/11 somehow always leave the authorities with even more power, rather than a focus on preventing things like that from happening again. Tales of 'authorities' tapping homes or offices and reading emails is fact, not fiction. Government officials can do nearly anything they want with impunity. So in reality, the government has become more like terrorists after 9/11. But I digress....I'm too tired to care until it happens to me!

JEFFREY = When you really think about it though, the Constitution has only held meaning in the hearts of men throughout it's existence. How many men and women have been shit on despite it's existence? (Yes that is true but twice as many have been protected by it and that is what we need not to forget!! ~ Dale) Look at the way blacks were treated in the first half of the last century. I know, I know....we've all heard enough about them....sad to say but we were once a proud country and the deterioration wasn't noticeable until we started becoming inter-racial and overpopulated with everyone elses problems. I guess that's the way the native Americans felt about us though. The way I see it.....well, kind of like the internet.

The people haven't had the power since mass communication was invented. That was not only a tool for us to learn of current events almost instantly but it was also a powerful tool for our government to eventually enslave us. They controlled it even then and the news was what they wanted the people to hear. It hasn't changed. Actually, it's only gotten worse because now people are growing more ignorant and even more uninterested in politics and the powers that be. People want to live a nice happy life away from all the problems of the rest of the world. Especially Americans. Most Americans want to sit back and think that Hiroshima can't happen to them. So instead they wrap themselves up in soap operas, use drugs, and concentrate on only the superficial and artificial...materialism. That's what took real meaning out of people's lives.

KEITH = There is a saying I learned a long time ago, that helped me to come to acceptance with a lot more of the normally “unacceptable” aspects of my life, and that is-”It hurts a lot less when you stop fighting”..... Meaning we’re going to be fukked up the arse by one regime or another, there is nothing you, alone, can do about it without becoming another Matt Hale or another name on a wall someplace, another martyr for the cause, as you will. I used to believe that revolution was the way, that somehow I COULD make a difference, but in actuality I cannot, I realized this, and the fact that apathy is the only way I can live a peaceful life and find some sort of peace of mind...

I even quit watching the news about a year ago, this is NOT the world of our proud ancestry grabbing the reigns of power here from the English... This is the world of the US government wielding such unbeatable and uncontroversial power that if you walk out of your house with a sniper rifle, if the government wanted to do such, they could take a picture of you from an orbiting satellite and have you killed before you reach the end of the block... I know this example is bloated out of what would really happen, but it isn’t far from exactly what would happen...sure the Washington DC area sniper could pick off all of those innocent civilians, but do you think some revolutionary force could pick off the centers of government without any trouble? I wish like hell they would because I don’t like whats happening any more than other people who followed what this regime pushed down our throats directly following 9/11, but I don’t think it is feasible, or even possible in this day in age of “big brother” and having such an omnipotent government. My advice? Bend over, grab your ankles, brace yourself and try not to think about the reaming you’re getting....



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FILIP = I am really pissed when one is telling about spreading trend of '80s metal' on the scene of today... One told he does not understand why BEHERIT is such a cult now 'cause their music was and is a big piece of shit. Is not it also the TRUE SPIRIT what the real metal stands for? Good metal does not need to be polite, polished & overproduced to be good... On the other hand I think there is something in it, the trends of today like 'lucious modern metal' they afraid... I think it is truth people in the 'business' not in the scene fear... Metal is brutal, insane, narrow minded but honest to what it stands for. You have to be true to what you choose... But what about the trends of today? Anyfuckingthing but the kitchen sink...???

CATH = I’m not sure what you mean because early Beherit were as you say brutal, insane... After it did change a lot to go into paranoid acid-trip stuff. I don’t know about the trends of today as I don’t really know what’s going on. But in the underground there are bands that still surprise me. They have great riffs, a thick metal feel, some morbidity in it, and some of them are recent bands. They are rare, but I receive great promos every once in a while for the zine. That’s in a way why I keep doing this zine, as I still get excellent music to talk about.

JEFFREY = Fuck Filip! That's just the problem these days. That's what creates the rift...well, not just that but it is part of it. Ask the guy who told you that if he listens to black metal. If he says yes then he will tell you that he loves Dimmu Borgir and the latest piece of garbage being released by Nuclear Blast. A like that could never understand what black metal is or what it means to those that truly feel it. It isn't just music and it certainly isn't about image and it has NOTHING to do with being nice, clean, polished or any of the things you mentioned. I know I don't have to tell you any of this as you frequently put together one hell of a bastard of an ug zine that speaks volumes for what it means to FEEL metal and hatred and imbibe each on a daily basis.

B.C. = Metal has always had its trends, but I tend to shun them anymore. If it is good, I will listen to it. If the band sells out, I will abandon it and sell it to some trendy fag. The thing that I hate is when people are worshipping things they did not experience and are claiming it as their own. Moonblood is the PRIME example. They never intended for their musick to be so sought after by trendy ebay whores. It's kind of sad that I see these things happening, as well as kids bootlegging their LPs and tapes onto CDs, something which the band never intended. People collect these things, not because they like the musick, but so they can brag to their friends about how 'true' they are and how many rare records they have. Who fucking cares? Anyone can take mommy's credit card and paypal someone for a record on ebay. It doesn't mean they understand the musick or the philosophy behind such acts. Look at the way someone will buy ANYTHING if you put "NSBM" by the name. Even though many of the NSBM bands are PURE SHIT musickally. Ughh...fuck it...my stomach is turning. I do not care to talk about this anymore!

KEITH = I was actually writing Holocausto back in 1990, so I can atest that EVERYONE does NOT feel that their music is and was shit, and I agree with you Filip, in your disregard and distain for the modern trend of “luscious modern metal” however I do not (and I know this wasn’t your terminology but the terminology by in large) agree with classifying a lot of this shit that comes out these days as “metal” at all.. what is “metal”? The Vomitor CD, the new Gospel of the Horns CD, the Saltus CD, the latest Abigail MCD, the new Azaghal CD, these are monuments of modern metal.

However in mallrat circles, and even at most metal shows nowadays you ask three or four people what their favorite “modern” metal CD or album is and they will list the current release roster for Napalm Records or Century Media...the connotation of the world “modern” has been de-evoluted into some moniker for rap soaked hardcore or, perhaps even worse, mediocre doom metal with a bunch of chicks wailing over the top of, and everything in between.... Once in a great while one of these “eighties retro bands” will come out with something half decent, but you look at a band like Susperia, when their first album came out, they were toting the “Oh, our music pays homage to the 1980’s godz like Destruction or Kreator or Sodom, blah blah blah” which you find is utter nonsense after you read this and go to the record store drop $20 or sometime even more for the CD and find out it has fucking techo riffs?!?! This is not merely misrepresentation but it is shitting ALL OVER such monumental releases as “Persecution Mania”, Obsessed By Cruelty”, “Eternal Devastation” et al... Espcially when some kid reads what I described Susperia saying, goes out and buys the CD (never hearing an old Sodom or Kreator album) and thinks that a shit band like Susperia embodies the very essence of what we metalheads REALLY listen to... Susperia is just the ultimate tip of the iceberg, I could list a million examples...

I was at a record store here in Pittsburgh, there was a girl working at the cash register (who incidentally used to work at Hammerfart when Maria Wbril ran the office here in Pittsburgh) wearing some goth metal band shirt (I can’t remember now) but she looked at the shirt I was wearing (a Nargaroth “Black metal Ist Krieg” shirt) and says, cool shirt...I asked her, “Do you know who this band is?!?” and she said, “uh no”....I didn’t think so...ANYBODY who makes such a wide and sweeping generalization about ANY music (i.e. “Beherit was and is utter shit etc”) or anything else pretty much, does not understand it, and are scared of it.... All of the rest feign knowledge and acceptance into the ways of the ancient kults, but when confronted with even just a logo that everybody in the REAL metal scene should know well, shows their real colours...fukk em...

DALE = Absolutely this is one of the worst problems plaguing the scene today. I think this topic can be the perfect companion to the one I raised elsewhere about everybody wanting everything so professional and polished. They cannot see the forest through the woods, metal is ALL about feeling and attitude - it is not about professionalism, it is not about candy coated productions, it is not about spending your parents money recording a full length recording and trying to pass it off as an official album with glossy packaging, it is not about mouse pads with the new Gayhem logos on them, it is not about glossy magazines (“fanzines”) with free compilation CDs with the latest shlop Candlelight or Hammerheart Records has out, it is not about hanging picture discs on your wall when you do not even own a record player, it is not about seeing a Cradle Of Filth video on Headbangers Ball, it is not about super groups, it is not about synth, it is not about paying $150 for a record on Ebay, it is not about plastic fangs, it is not about mixing in goth influence!

It IS about fanzines who support real bands, it is about tape trading, it is about blasting your vinyls at ridiculous volume, it is about headbanging, it is about denim vests with buttons and patches on them, it is about ordering demos and fanzines, it is about spreading flyers, it is about going to small gigs, it is about supporting like minded metal brothers, it is about close minded musical values and above all what it is about is raw violent fast music with an aggressive or dark atmosphere and raging hate!!



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DALE = In my opinion, one of the things wrong with the scene since the early/mid 90s is there has been this near sided and blind compulsion for everything in the UG to be glossy & professional. From fanzines to paper flyers, to demo band releases, and on and on. I think this is a big factor in producing so many mediocre bands and fanzines in recent years. I mean fans will overlook some glaring garbage if it is nicely packaged, has an Abyss production or with a fanzine if it comes with a free comp CD and has a colour glossy cover.

JEFFREY = This goes hand in hand with what Filip just brought up. If your attitude screams for professionalism then do it that way but do it from the heart and make it good. I still can't understand to this day why anyone would ever pick up an issue of Pit for example, and actually want to read it or even worse pay for it. I guess they sell a lot of those things though....I would probably package up my shit and sell it too as long as there was demand for it. The older I get the more DIY seems to be the only real way to do things these days. Not that I hate lavish packaging on a cd or LP but what's inside really has to make that packaging be part of the background effect. The music or writing as it were must speak for itself!

FILIP = I do agree. I think I told about it before: there’s a lot of mediocre fanzines which looks same. Equally the same!! I think it is all because the dull people from high heel society are bored with what the pretty life offered to them and want to become evil now. They do not want to lick tits of their girlfriends anymore because they’re bored. They want to bite it now that’s why they print a shit with shit bands. But I think it’s also because there’s nothing interesting happening in the scene I mean the mainstream) – except reunions. Maybe people who used to think they’re dedicated lose’s their interest to do a good fanzines or to discover the real metal world in the underground. But I think it’s good there are two undergrounds: the mainstream and the real, filthy, obscure and evil. We are here, nobody either know or care about us and we can live breathing metal!!!

B.C. = Again another fault that festers in the underground. Wherever did this idea come from that everything needed to be super glossy and packaged super professionally? Some of the clearest productions take away from the bands' power drastically. You can never judge a book by its cover in the underground scene. Look at 'zines for the best example out there. I would GLADLY take a cut and paste 'zine over some glossy shit SOD mag with boring interviews, thoughtless layout and gay popular bands. And I would take hand written lyrics and a black and white cover if the musick was good over some glossy paper, overproduced pile of shit. However, look at Sorhin's "Apokalypsens Ängel" or Watain "Rabid Death's Curse". Pretty good productions/packaging, yet still retaining an underground sound and still being two of the best black metal CDs in existence! On the other hand are bands like Nachtmystium, Fornication, Warloghe, Clandestine Blaze, etc. that have CDs with a generally raw and dirty production and are still excellent. So let the kids have the glossy cradle of filth cds and pretend they are vampire faggots. Real black/death metal will rise above regardless of sound quality.

CATH = I don’t understand why, because when I started my zine it was impossible in my eyes to print something on glossy paper and in color. You need to print at least 1000 copies or more to have a work worth going under press, so it means it’s a lot of money. How can someone having a small project done in the underground can invest so much cash? I don’t feel like it’s essential to have publications done this way. I still prefer the cut n’ paste xeroxed zines. Just dig up your old fanzines, those you found to be the coolest and most kult, that feeling can still be included in our actual publication, if we remove the too-clean presentations with ultra-glossy paper. Another thing I need to say is, when certain photo-manipulation softwares became more evolved (I don’t mention any, just guess), some people, with I don’t know which money, bought it and decided to add plenty of automatic effects in their glossy mags. Which is not a good thing at all. It brings nothing new, as everybody’s using these effects. Distort, bevel and emboss, drop shadow, blur, they’re all being used and overused, which does not make it a professional layout. Instead of making different things with cut n’ paste, they do it with computer. That’s a computer layout, but it’s not necessarily professional. There are usually plenty of mistakes, repetitions, or it’s just boring, there’s a big lack of atmosphere. Let’s keep it the cut n’ paste way and focus on the quality of the content!

KEITH = I totally agree with Dale on this point...let me tackle this in two stages, demos and then fanzines, firstly, demos and independent band released material in general...Look at the early demos by Nunslaughter, Necrovore, Von, Sarcofago, Nihilist, Treblinka etc etc etc etc...None of these were in any way particularly high budget affairs, Nunslaughter for instance began in 1987 and didn’t even record in a studio until 1995 or 1996, all of these bands have evolved into either major players in the modern scene or major kult names that have been hallowed ever since...Now all of the Nunslaughter demos (the original ones being dubbed on home cassettes with xeroxed covers) are being unleased on vinyl (which only 6 or 7 years ago was considered a “dead item” in the underground world as well (believe me when I say this...I KNOW this first hand)...FUKK I have an original band copy of Emperor’s Wrath of the Tyrant demo that I got from Mortiis in 1992, it has a xerox cover and the copy I have even cuts off!!! Now look at them DVD’s, CD roms blah blah blah....Anyway back to the case of Nunslaughter, the band themselves have never lost that underground feeling but a whole enterpirse has arisen around old demos that weren’t of exceptional sound quality or packaging, being Repackaged and Reissued to fit the needs of the modern plastic culture that a bunch of cash hungry rich kids who started labels exploiting black metal when it became a trend and lost its kult status, have wrought upon the scene...

We as undergrounders have a sense of pretense about us that allows us to feel “superior” or “elite” simply because of the fact that we are not traveling along with the herd mentality of society...this trend towards utter professionalism is a FUNCTION of the VERY society we supposedly abhor and fight against, I mean what really separates some bands total pro first demo which has been released on CD complete into the shrinkwrap by discmakers at some exhorbadent price (which daddy and mommy of corpse pays for), what separates that from a Korn CD you buy at the mall, at least to the lay listener? A band is not meant to be instantly signed and have a 5 album recording contract complete with world tours and no brown M&Ms in their dressing rooms, before they even are known outside of the city they live in!!! This is ridiculous, but its what bands that are just starting out expect anymore... I mean pro Cds have their place and all of the bands I have mentioned in the beginning like Nunslaughter and Treblinka and Nihilist had their periods (with the exception of Nunslaughter of corpse which is still proceeding) when they were very worthy of album contracts and pro releases, but give the underground space to do what the underground has done since the days of the NWOBHM when double cassette decks first came into prominence, I don’t think the bands should waste as much money on packaging when (if you are vitually unknown to begin with) you’re going to be giving these things away anyway...I should preface this with saying-if you want to sign to some ZOG funded label like Nuclear Blast or Century Media, then go ahead and do your crappy pro packaging job at Discmakers, but for REAL underground bands, who UNDERSTAND what the underground is REALLY about? Spend more money making XEROXED flyers, doing mail and getting your name in every possible fanzine...spend a couple of years at least perfecting your trade before trying to get signed to fucking CBS or Virgin Records...

With fanzines, this is a subject EXTREMELY near and dear to MY heart especially, I feel at least, for I did a fanzine the entire way through the later 1980’s and 1990’s and saw, first hand, the rapidly changing, and extremely fickle state of the scene... Not many of you on this panel have seen my first couple issues, they were HORRIBLE in retrospect, EXTREMELY amateurish and crass and rude etc etc... At the time I was releasing these xeroxed tabloid turds though (1989-1991) I got a great deal of awesome feedback and made friends (and got good reviews based solely on the content and not the container) in underground zines and total pro zines alike...however towards the mid 1990’s things started to change rapidly, vinyl died out like the dodo and even underground distros and zines wanted NOTHING to do with my 7”’s (because I had the buisness like foresight to start releasing stuff at this time on vinyl) and all of the zines you started to see were on newsprint or if from Estonia or Latvia on this horrible looking semi glossy and very cheap paper... I took ONE HELL of a lot of time printing off literally thousands of copies of Eternal Darkness, hand coalating all of the pages in each one, hand stapling each one only to hear time and time again “Why read fanzines, fanzines are obsolete, the photo quality is bad and blah blah blah” It disheartened me to a point I just said FUKK IT!! This point was reached when I realized that all of the kids in the metal scene were reading Transcending the Mundane or Promeathean Crusade and getting them for free!!! And they go through thousands! Look at the writing in any issue of theirs compared to the writing and content in ANY issue of my piece of shit xerox zine...

If someone would want to take the time, the difference would be obvious...This sort of mentality and the state of the zine scene (which deteriorated to its lowest point in 1999 or 2000, I feel) killed my zine as it did many others I’m sure...I have seen more and more xerox zines lately than I have in years, zines like Lether n Spikes, Dauthus, Satanic War Command and I feel there might be hope, even with great pro printed mags like Canadian Assault, Desecration of Virgin etc... that keep and cherish the ancient cut and paste mentality and don’t go the route of Transcending the Mundane or the Grimoire of Exalted Retardation...perhaps there is hope...to be quite existential about it, it is the yin and the yang, the to and the fro of the cosmos, everything is cyclical after all, but then Shiva descends and blows us all to bloody dust, so fukk it...



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KEITH = It is just about 10 years since the murder of Euronymous and thanks to Kerrang magazine in particular, the beginning of the mass consumption of out once kult black metal scene, 12 years ago you were chastised for being a satanic zine or band, now it is almost a necessity to survival in the scene... in retrospect where do you guys think the black metal scene went wrong, what do you think of the state of the present day black metal scene and where do you see black/death metal heading in the future?

FILIP = I think it went wrong at the very (?!?) beginning, when Kerrang published the article about satanism and shit… Then, the circus begun…

CATH = I always focused on extreme metal that was black death or thrash (war metal!!), or a mix of all those genres, quality metal, with a great morbid feeling and dedicated musicians. To me it’s the way it was and the way it will be. I keep knowing about interesting bands every once in a while, and I want to support them. That’s the underground. I don’t feel a need for something new. You can make excellent music, original music, without bringing something necessarily completely new. But if you want an answer I think the future is called WAR METAL.

B.C. = I actually don't think the black metal scene went wrong at all. Truthfully, the bands of today seem to have much more integrity than the bands of yesteryear, with few exceptions. Time will tell how long all these great BM bands stay this way. I think it's a FUCKING AWESOME thing that the Norwegian scene turned so fucking gay. It shows all these blind fucking idiots what I've been saying all along....scenes like the Swedish, Finnish, French, German, Polish, Australian, etc. black metal scenes are just as good if not better than the Norwegian scene.

I ALWAYS from the beginning admired bands like early Katatonia, Dissection (GODS!!!) early Impaled Nazarene, Beherit, old Samael. HOWEVER, I also loved early Gorgoroth, Ulver, Enslaved, old Satyricon, and Immortal. The trends come and go, but I'm almost overwhelmed with the amount of great black metal I'm hearing. It's interesting when you see new bands coming out to listen to them and study the things they say or write. You can almost tell who is 'true' I think. I think that BM seems to be less image-oriented nowadays. I mean, some bands still use corpse-paint, but a lot of CDs come without photos and such, allowing people to focus on the musick and perhaps lyrics. Remember in the early 90s when EVERY band had lavish photos plastered all over their CDs? Every band who wore corpse-paint was instantly followed. I think the internet has in many ways helped me at least, in weeding out the shit bands and the good ones. No longer do you have to throw your money away on some hyped-up band to find they are shit. You listen to the MP3s and buy it if you like them. I do think that the 'satanic' image and such has become extremely less-shocking. I am unmoved by it all. It's not really shocking or terrifying. No matter how extreme a band gets, it is nothing that hasn't been done before. So since image is less and less important, the musick better be really fucking good. True, there are MANY more shit bands probably today, but also many more good bands. I think the future of black metal will fluctuate as it always has.

You can see it now with the NSBM trend waxing and waning, seeing what bands are still around to release more than one demo plastered with swastikas and anti-jew propaganda. Now it seems the raw war metal thing is all the rage, with bands playing as fast and raw as they can. Either that or bands playing very minimalistically, trying to imitate Darkthrone. But amid all that, certain bands will rise above the heap and make you feel like you're hearing black metal for the first time all over again. I would be remiss if I didn't mention some: Watain, Azaghal, Luror, Magog, Secrets of the Moon, Infernal War, Satanic Warmaster, Necroplasma, Funeral Mist, Vargsriket, Malign, Old Wainds, Svest, Craft, Morthond, Saltus, Nagelfar, Sorhin, Musta Surma, Ewiges Reich, Woods of Infinity, Uncreation's Dawn, Diaboli, Kult ov Azazel, Nachtmystium, Legion, Fornication, Antaeus, are among some of the best that come to mind!

DALE = It all went wrong when those bands went against all they supposedly stood for, they all jumped on the media bandwagon, they all signed to labels (or did not leave or refuse to let their labels sell the rights to their albums to big labels) they claimed to hate, they stopped releasing demos and 7”s and to put it plainly they sold out and became everything they claimed to loathe and want to destroy. Then once they started making some money they came up with the idea of starting 3 to 6 side projects with half assed music to double and triple the bundles of cash rolled up in their pockets. Finally I will leave you with one name that brought untold disgrace and embarrassment to the Norwegian scene = HELLHAMMER! Someone should have exterminated that little pansy years ago!

JEFFREY = It's odd to me that you mention that. Necessary to survival? I never thought about it that way but you are almost entirely correct. I don't personally judge bands or people that way as I do not believe in god or Satan as entities. Back in the 80's people knew nothing about it and so they loathed it or feared it instantly. Now, people have grown up with it or they see that so many others "follow" it so they think it's acceptable to be that way. Just like punk or any other form of youthful rebellion. Most kids jump on and stay at a certain level and never dive deeper into the real ug. It's kind of funny sometimes when I think about it too...a lot of guys in the ug...we are just supporting each other for the most part. Everyone is in a band or does a zine or some such. Each guy releasing records is usually also buying hundreds of others. That's what's keeping the ug alive in my opinion. That's how it's always been. I don't see a change in the past nor do I see one coming. If the Kovenant or Ulver or whomever think they can dictate the future of black metal.....think again.



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DALE = My personal view is that message boards are kind of lame. I mean I will sign a guestbook but I leave it at that. It seems like web boards are mostly frequented by fair weather weekend black/death teenage kids with far too much time on their hands and whenever it gets slow or boring on the message board they start a fight with someone or start some rumours just to see if people will believe them.

B.C. = Again I have to agree with you. Other than the fact that they are almost assuredly pointless, who the dick has time to do this? I have been on a couple of them just to see what they are about and other than the decent info or news you occasionally pick up, it's mainly a bunch of wankers arguing about what band is best or whatever. Boring as hell and draining of all that is inspirational. That is one of the annoying aspects with the internet, that some idiot who just heard the new $atyricon CD thinks he's black metal. These things used to really annoy me, but now I couldn't care less, as I have delved so deeply into the most obscure acts that will NEVER be widely known. You still need to search hard to find the real bands and most of them do not appear on some message board! Also too many kids are either too lazy to actually send out $ for cult metal or don't own a record player! So to conclude, if there is decent metal to be found, you have to be diehard and spend every free moment corresponding with people and seek these things out. Not some cute message board where you'll find everything you need to know.

CATH = If you’re 13 and you don’t always go to school, you can be on the Internet all the time! So chatting or message boards or anything else is a good way to waste your time. If you subscribe to different lists and go regularly in chat rooms, etc, that give you something to do. For them, this is the underground! That’s all they know but they are convinced they know everything.

FILIP = To be honest, I hardly ever surf internet but I do like neither massage boards nor guest books. Or maybe I really should follow your way of thinking, Dale, and tell it is all because of the shitheads writing there too much without sense because their hands are free from writing in school.

JEFFREY = Ditto. I've tried to use message boards in the past to mostly try to dig up information on old bands or whatever and once in a while for honest and true opinions. Almost everyone posting their opinions on message boards are not being honest! And most of the time you see a lot of the same people coming back all the time...they obviously have nothing better to do and they are doomed as such I guess since the web board will suck up all their free time eventually.....and then they will get bored and be on to the next big thing. If you are interested in meeting "people" though.....you could always try the Full Moon Productions online dating service.

KEITH = I have seen and heard of stuff like this happening a lot, somehow picking a fight with someone online, behind the safety of a computer in your mom’s basement with the door locked in the security of suburbia sounds , well a little art phaggy to me...what happened to the days of picking fights with people in person and settling like the reverend Paul Baloff (RIP) would, not like sniveling, frighten, weasels...This is truly the age of plasticism, cowardice and Hammerheart Records...



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JEFFREY = So, how long before vinyl dies out again? I honestly haven't ever seen vinyl this popular in the underground. You've got demo songs coming out on split 7"s left and right these days. A lot of bands are going straight to vinyl and avoiding the demo process altogether. Which obviously isn't such a great idea for a real vinyl addict that wants to own every new record in the ug. Instead of quality ug music, that person quite often ends up with poorly recorded and performed dreck that he could have done similar or better himself with a bit of $ and patience. That same method works for or against some obviously. Yazayuki from Abigail being a prime example of not needing to rehearse too much to release some really spontaneous and scorching metal. People like him will always keep quality in ug vinyl releases alive but people that do are few and far between these days. Plus, you always have those lame bands that release it for the "true" or "cult" factor. Like, "My record is on Sombre! Now I can be an ug rockstar!" Sad but true.

FILIP = I think it’s quite important of what you are talking about now, Jeff. I think the thing is not only about vinyl releases becoming ‘so, so…’ but I think the thing is even more about mainstream scene too. You can ask me ‘why do you talk so dramatic?’ I could answer’ Just look all around yourself… Ok, You’ll get of what I am talking about now… Generally speaking that’s true lots of crap bands have vinyl releases nowadays. Even crap vinyls of so called cult vinyl labels happens even more often nowadays (no names yet…). Big companies release CDs of famous and infamous bands and ltd vinyl version. One can say: vinyl trend begun. I would agreed with such statement. But there’s something more behind this all happening now. Notice some of bigger labels smell the ‘$$$’ and new money machine into ‘old-schooled’, ‘real metal’, etc. bands. The great hunting has just begun and the vinyl thing is just a symptom of this… But that’s my own opinion.

B.C. = Vinyl will never die in my opinion. Let's face it, most of the people who collect vinyl (I think) are true supporters of the underground cults. Most of the trendy fags don't even own a record player, nor are they supportive enough to send cash to another country for some records. If it isn't on ebay or they can't pay with paypal, they generally don't want it. The one point you did bring up though is that EVERYTHING is now being released on vinyl. I HATE live recordings generally and also most old demos that bands put on vinyl suck. There IS a lack of quality in a lot of vinyl (and other formats.) Truthfully, it is sad that I end up never listening to half of the 7"s I have because they are pure shit, production-wise and songwise often. Not to mention the fact that most 7"s have 2 fucking songs, no lyric sheet, and you pay 8 fucking dollars for one! Remember the days when $5 was a lot to pay for a 7"? I think that bands should focus on taking more time to release quality NEW songs instead of releasing horrible shit recordings just to put something out. Look at a band like Sorhin. Have they ever released anything that isn't fucking killer? The answer is NO! They are not the most prolific band, but everything is quality.

KEITH = I had no idea until very recently just how much stuff comes out on Sombre...Now I like Sombre a great deal but I only have a few of the records, the ones that I knew I would like (Decayed, Moonblood, Apolokia etc) and I respect what Sombre did and does IMMENSELY, but I must admit the pure volume that he is releasing ruins the mystique I once felt for his label, even though the acts may be of highest quality...It would happen with any label I feel, there is a certain mystique, being truly kult or just the obscurity of a label only releasing a few awesome records over the course of many years, instead of 20 mediocre records in 1 year...Honestly two weeks ago I heard from 3 people in three different countries...continents as well, come to think of it... tell me “Hey I got a record coming out on Sombre” I thought they were pulling my leg but I was wrong... I really do believe everything is very cyclical in any form of society, beit in mainstream America (like those horrible hip huggers young girls wear that make their asses look to small coming into fashion again, what the fukk it that!?!?! Lets see more of those painted on 1980’s jeans with BIG FAT BUTTS!...ohh I forgot what we are talking about...) or in the underground...I think though when tapes go I feel it will be forever, and that fukking kills me, because (and you guys are gonna hate me for this) cassettes are actually my favorite format, even over vinyl...it is the format my dulled luddite brain can understand the best and the one that gives me the least trouble... SO fukk Vinyl Jeffrey, what about cassettes!?!?! HAHA!

DALE = I can vouch for the fact Keith is a vinyl warrior (and cassettes too of course), he was releasing vinyl in the middle 1990s at a time when vinyl was so fucking dead it had started to decay. Heathens like Mr. Dempe, dressed those wounds and stopped the bleeding! Keith knew he might be committing financial yet his dedication to the scene and the format compelled him onward through the battle regardless. I never thought too much about the point Jeffrey made until recently when he brought it up in phone conversations. It seems like it is true since the pendulum has swung a full circle and miraculously in this day and age of digitizing lust and computers, vinyl has not only come back but is all the rage suddenly. But of course this brings out the crowd that thought vinyl was shit and could not be bothered by it through the 90s and beginning of this century and all the sudden *Poof* they are die hard vinyl junkies.

And yes I am getting to the point, what I have laid out here is the basis for what is suddenly becoming an “in” thing where bands are releasing vinyl solely based on trying to build up automatic reputation regardless of the fact they did not earn it or work toward it. Now all the sudden if you release something on Sombre or Nuclear War Now! or End All Life you suddenly have cult status with at least a certain portion of the scene. Half the bands releasing that stuff, if this was 8 years ago they would not even consider doing such a thing. It is a tough situation for the vinyl fan, the overall quality is less and now when you buy a seven inch, sometimes you are left wondering if the bands heart was really in this release or not. Having said all that I am stoked that vinyl is back and is strong, if I have to take a few more bad releases and half hearted efforts in order to have releases I want on vinyl and to keep the tradition of this supreme format in the metal scene strong then so fucking be it!

CATH = That depends the way you see it. I understand you point of view. I just wouldn’t like vinyls and tapes (and videos) disappearing. I wouldn’t like to remain alone with CDs, CD-r’s, MP3’s and DVD’s! I’m bored with receiving CD-r’s, they’re good for the garbage! They’re nothing like tapes and vinyls!



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CATH = Cassette tapes & tape trading vs. CDR’s?

B.C. = I do rather like CDRs (when they don't fucking skip!), though I don't have a CD burner. CDs are generally what I will listen to the most as the convenience of skipping tracks or repeating tracks is much easier on CDs/CDRs than cassettes. I don't think it makes too much difference as I listen to a hell of a lot of demos and LPs/7"s recorded onto tapes. There is one advantage to cassettes, especially when I'm driving around. If I have to stop off somewhere, the tape is in the same spot as when I left!

DALE = I am just a big fan of tape trading and encourage all undergrounders with the time and money to do it, regardless if they do it on tapes or CDR’s, both of which are fine with me. Some of my greatest memories were the 7 odd years I was an avid prolific tape trader from early to late 90s, it was unfortunate when I started the fanzine I quickly found out to do either one right I had to stop one or the other and obviously I decided on the fanzine. I still keep my hand in it in a small way with some odd bits of video trading here and there when I can.

KEITH = Being that I be just a po’ white boy I don’t even have a CD burner...actually I am thinking about buying another tape deck in lieu of buying a CD burner (which I could swing if I REALLY wanted to) so I think that answers your question... I have had so much trouble with Cds and CDRs and DVDs over the years that I have REALLY become quite dependant on the cassette format....SUre rewinding is a bitch, but hey great music is worth a couple extra minutes and then there is the quality factor...Fukk it, I’ve been tape trading since 1986, I just don’t like the idea of CDR trading, it doesn’t sit well with me whatsoever...

JEFFREY = I've gone over this one numerous times before. Tapes and cds are simply formats. I own and listen to lots of tapes but half those tapes were recorded from cds or "master" cd-rs. Like most of the demos you get nowadays. You can buy 20 covers and 1 CD-R and do the whole dubbing process yourself. You save a lot of money on shipping. Especially overseas. The pros in this case basically lie in the CD-R territory.

FILIP = To be honest – I do not like CDRs. I mean I do not like to collect music on CDRs. But I do not like dubbed tapes, cdrs, mp3… I hate them all. I think it somehow kills the music. On the other hand it is good to have a possibility to burn a cd just to listen to it and to decide whether it’s worthy spending your cash or not. However it is pity not all people think so. Mass culture helps you to get used to easy things, so, people seems to not bother to buy or dub. They prefer to burn a cd or to burn hundreds of mp3’s on a CDR what I personally hate.



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KEITH = Whose a better vocalist Sheepdog or Bob Reid? Why?

JEFFREY = 2 words. VIOLENT RESTITUTION!

B.C. = Ugh...I still don't know who Sheepdog is but had to look up Bob Reid, now I just want to kill myself. Keith, you're lucky you're bigger than me or I'd have to kill you for putting me through that! Hahaha..kidding. If there was ever a child-molesting country singer, I'd imagine it would sound like Bob Reid!

KEITH = Bob Reid...easy Listen to Shotgun Justice and tell me he’s not superior, if you can’t I then hit you in the face with a baseball bat or at the very least go to the Full Moon Productions message board and make that truth of your grandma being black known to the whole scene!! HAHA (Oh shit Keith is talking to himself again, break the code Keith and put the top secret envelopes in the mail box of the abandoned house! Haha – DALE)

DALE = I am a little bit surprised. I thought I would be the only one to say Bob Reid. It seems like all the old metalheads are Sheepdog this and Sheepdog that and what if he had stayed in Razor. I like Sheepdog but fuck that Bob Reid made me forget about him and Bob Reid did a fucking killer job and was a motherfucker of a singer. HELL YEAH!



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JEFFREY = I don't know if I just happen to experience this more than most but why is it that so many bands accept interviews and then never reply to them? Some make excuses, some even say that they've finished it and will be sending it soon...and some just ignore you altogether. After all the time I put into making a decent interview...researching lyrics, music, other interviews; is it too much to ask that a band keep their word and put at least some effort into the whole thing? Or at least just say, "I'm an asshole and now I don't want to keep my word" or "You're mag just isn't important enough to me mate".

B.C. = I have experienced this and I lost a lot of respect for these selfish rockstars. These are the assholes who seek to destroy the underground, through their actions, even if not willingly. It takes a long time to research topics for a good and thorough, non-generic interview. It is sheer laziness to do such things. Especially after you agreed to do an interview. That would be like me shunning this discussion as I'm too busy or too 'important' to bother. Fuck that. I AM busy as are the rest of you, but the time comes to either participate in the underground somehow, or let it fall into obscurity. I choose the former.

FILIP = It all depends on which bands we’re talking about here. According to my own experiences I think it mainly happens because a band receiving lots of interviews don’t realize how much time and dedication it is going to cost him. In the end they’re doing easiest and most gay thing what means: they do not even bother to drop you a line ‘sorry but we do not give a shit about completing your interview…’. That’s really GAY’s behaviour!!!! (I hate gay people by the way – they make me puke. I am neither politically correct nor tolerant. FUCK YOU!!!).

CATH = You’re right, to make a good interview, you need to search on the band, analyze the lyrics a bit, listen to everything by them, read about them, search for other interviews they might have done, get as much info as you can. Then think of original questions. It can take many weeks to create a good interview. So it’s insulting to see many bands don’t reply when you have spent so much time on it, after all it’s free publicity for them. You give them a good possibility of selling their music, in a way. And they refuse that support? Weird. I’ve seen that for big bands but also small, starting bands. I’ve even seen bands who would accept interviews until they got a record contract, then they acted like stars and stopped all correspondence.

KEITH = Yes this is one of the quandries of doing a zine...one I overcame early in the game...in issue four I was scheduled to do an interview with Morbid Angel at a show they were playing in Phoenix...so I went to the show and the band were total asshole cock rockers who did one of the worse face to face interviews I’ve ever witnessed...I still have the tape but won’t even play it for anybody because of how bad it is...from that point on I decided, with a few exceptions, most ALL of which I later regretted, I am only going to support the bands I like and are friends of mine (i.e. support me in return) this usually means interviewing much lesser known bands, but I realized that is what the underground zine scene is SUPPOSED to be doing!

DALE = I agree Keith it is best to get to know the person you are interviewing first. But for example Jeffrey did exactly that with Azaghal exchanging Emails and packages and got some of his discs if I remember right for the distro. Then Jeffrey proposed an interview and it was accepted and later when asked, Jeffrey was told the interview was almost done and he would send it soon. Needless to say, after that he stopped replying to all contact. So even that seemingly fool proof plan can go amiss. It is the human equation and amazingly even when you think you know someone and think they are dedicated it can all go wrong. It is fucking frustrating, you put in so much work and you are trying to help these people promote their music and still they do this garbage.

Some other bands that have done similar things are Ossuary Insane, Judas Iscariot, Impending Doom and others. I do not fucking care, I will name names, like Bob said it is this kind of behaviour which is a cancer to our scene and I have no qualms about exposing it. I am busy like hell myself and since I started this zine, I myself have been interviewed over 30 times and I treat every fucking one with top priority and was indepth and prompt with it. I wish every band would do the same, I must say Cobalt in this very issue did just that and should be an example to the slackers out there. I would rather have a band turn down the interview like Graveland (because they only do interviews now with 100% political/ideological zines now I am told, I guess their music does mean shit then?) did than have the bands waste our time (and energy making the interview) and jerk our chains. That will only fuck themselves in the end!



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DALE = I think everyone here at this hellish Roundtable either does a fanzine, helps with one or used to do one. So I ask what if there was a label, like a record label (who payed for printing, did the majority of distribution and advertisement) which signed fanzines. It could even be a DIY xerox label. Would that be a good or bad thing do you think?

CATH = For me, doing a zine means you prepare the contents, you send it yourself to a printer and get to see the final result, you make your own promotion (you choose your contacts), and most of all you send yourself the zines to the readers. So you have a personalised correspondence with them. You get to know what they liked, what they hated, why they like you or why they hate your work, you get suggestions, and very often you get great contact to get rare music and information to talk about and make complete articles. You can even get as readers people from bands you definitely worship, so you have a unique chance to interview them without having to contact a label and get no answer in the end from the band. With a publishing house, all these aspects of the DIY projects are gone. But sometimes, when you have a project, you accept the financial help and the promotion a publisher can offer you. There are some projects I wouldn’t be able to do without it.

KEITH = I will preface this one with an idea that Chuck from Macabre made in an interview I read, he thinks that EVERYONE in the scene should take responsibility for him or her self (self meaning band, zine, entity whatever) and release, distribute and otherwise disemanate their music or literature or message in general, themselves...I think this is a good idea...the sooner we STOP relying on this big labels to run everything (and “big” is a relative term because at one point in time Eternal Darkness was as “big” as Relapse was much earlier, meaning anything can happen in the future) we will sooner expand the underground by bringing down the superstructure of mainstream metal (which incorporates everything from Barathrum to Bongzilla, from Mayhem to Marylin Manson) and making it ALL underground or excising and destroying ti in the process if WE the UNDERGROUND deem fit, which means WE take it back from the mallrats and gothfags and NU metalers who have stolen much of our ancient kult usurping our names and morays to fit their own fetid needs... DO IT YOURSELF D I Y OR DDDDDIIIIIIIIIIIEEEEEEEEEEE!

DALE = Well Keith I agree with you in principal and partially in practice. But I mean for example with their 2 latest releases (came out around the same time) they released them themselves and I guess it was not going that well because before long Macabre had licensed the rights for them to Olympic in the US and ..ahhh fuck… I am drawing a blank, was it Hammerheart or some label like that, yeah the more I think about it I believe it was Hammerheart. So I guess he kind of partly (at the very least) went back on his philosophy. Second, to bring to bear my statement of “partially”, I mean especially with bigger labels and such I totally see your point. However, even yourself if you believed that 100% there never would have been Eternal Darkness the label and the new demo you released by Sempiternal recently would be enabling the band to go against this ideal, am I wrong? I am not trying to rip your statement apart just it is a bit unrealistic to follow it militantly. If some label offered to pay the printing costs and help with part of the distribution and everything was on my terms and everything from beginning to the end print was done by my hands, then I would probably not turn it down. As evil and greedy as they can quickly become, at least at a lower or mid level they seem to me a necessary thing for the scene.

FILIP = It all depends. Really. I think that’s really cool that Red Stream print & distribute From beyond Fanzine. I really hail them for this. On the other hand – I am always afraid things like that just because of freedom of speech in your fanzine. I would be afraid one could say: ‘Hey, I pay for printing plant, I do distribution for you – why X got 1 out of 6 in the issue then? Explain that to me!’. I think fanzines are fanzines and belongs to their editors. It is you – the editor who works to earn good reputation in the scene, to maintain it, etc. I think I would never agreed such deal.

DALE = Well Bloodthorn is signed to Red Stream and Harold from Bloodthorn does From Beyond zine. So maybe it was part of the album contract, I am not sure? It is a unique situation though.

B.C. = Hmm....never thought of such an idea. It certainly would have helped my 'zine as it seemed like a bottomless pit of no return and got lost in the flood of shit that most fanzines are. It could be a good thing if the label were an underground-minded label who still had good distribution. That is the key...distribution. But with the internet and the flood of webzines, etc. I think that it wouldn't go over big. It's hard for me to believe that any 'zine still does well with the information on the internet and such. Though I love a good quality 'zine to just kick back to and play some good musick while reading. There are very few left that I've seen that are interesting. The one I'm in now is a great one, no lie. I really enjoy reading it. It is probably the only 'zine I have gotten in the last couple years that is good. And I hate reading webzines. It's not the same as holding the paper in your hands and getting the ink on your fingers! Well Dale...see if you can talk someone into this idea! 'Zines are the least-appreciated art and most time-consuming thing in the underground. And they are where you find some of the best information. It takes diehard dedication! Believe me, I know!

JEFFREY = Signing zines? That's kind of an odd thought but I guess that's what book publishing companies do for a living. They would have to be ready to take a loss of course and also be extremely dedicated to the ug because the # of people that actually buy zines compared to the number of faggot wankers that won't even take a good zine when it's free are not comparable in the lightest sense. And I'm ok with that. I always have been. I don't nor did I ever do this zine for exposure or to gain friends or any such trivial bullshit. My contribution to this zine consists of the dark and drunken hours between work and sleep whence I can truly communicate my ideas and thoughts. Nothing more.



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FILIP = I remember once Dale told in CA # 6 or # 5 that watching a TV and when it is a time for addy the volume is suddenly growing to return to its previous level when a program continues... I couldn't believe but recently I noticed it also in Polish TV... But what I want to ask about is: do you think that we really need these couple of people in government, big corporations, monopolists who rule the societies just to suck their pockets and to generate their minds for their own profit? I am not anarchist but don't you think we need fresh blood to rule this world? Isn't it about time to let the 'sheep' mentality & almighty MONEY collapse? But what other options do we have if the young of today choose not to think but rather follow trends of today to stay 'cool'...

B.C. = Man I thought that was just something with my crappy cable network! That's fucking annoying as hell. Especially when it's late at night and you're trying not to wake other people in the house. I swear I wish someone would invent something to automatically mute all commercials and then resume normal volume once whatever you are watching is on again. Luckily I don't watch too much TV anymore. It would be nice to have 'fresh blood' to rule the world, unless they are simply clones of the old fools that are there now. Too bad good ideas NEVER get far. ANYTHING that strays from the formula is quieted and laughed off as a pipe-dream. How would we let the $ collapse? It simply cannot happen on a very large scale. The rich get richer, the poor get poorer. That is a fact that will always remain. Have you ever tried to buy a house on your income with no one else? I've tried and it's fucking impossible unless you make big $. I know the economy is not so good nowadays, noticeable by talking to people in the retail business. In reality, there is simply NOTHING we can really do, short of a violent revolt against the government. And what does that accomplish in the long run? A minor distraction and a lot of dead bodies. We're fucked and there's no use even trying to straighten out the big picture. I would be anxious to hear if there is anyone who can say what will reverse the hands of time regarding issues of government and big money. It's a no-win situation. I hope to be dead by the age of 40.

DALE = Again my hallowed brothers, I cannot bring myself to be apathetic about the situation. Sure, the odds are long but there is always a chance and if there is a big enough revolt, I think you underestimate the power of world’s public opinion. The one problem with them continuing this facade of a free democratic society (peel back the layers and nothing could be further from the truth) where our government is seen as the good guy and exposing them (a monumental task I will give you that) would be like pulling back the curtain to show to expose the Wizard Of Oz is a little deceiving man pulling levers. The break down of the facade and the mass shock of the grey obedient masses in the face of the truth could bring the whole thing crumbling down.

No matter how strong and fortified something is there is always an achilles heel somewhere, no matter how insulated humans are foulable. It is so easy to let apathy creep in, I have done it many a time and fight daily not to let cover me in it’s shadow. I also know I cannot let it my distress at it consume me and there must be a balance struck for my sanity. To sum it up Filip you are right we do need new blood and we do need to shatter this capitalist pig system one way or the other, because it is destroying everything. Be sure though it will change eventually, whether it be from us destroying each other in a major war and whoever is left has to start over or if the Earth itself rebels and decides to shake us the fuck up in revolt to us finally running out of resources to rape and plunder. I am not sure if it will happen in our lifetime but there is a decent chance of it. Until then if anyone wants a helping of my apathy, you are welcome to it I do not need it.

JEFFREY = They are called the Illuminati Filip. The elite. The cream of the crap. We have no say basically. We can certainly make our voices heard but all for naught. Look at the suicide bombers in Israel? Do you care about them? No? They just exist. They destroy things and then the mess gets cleaned up. The youth thinking for themselves? It doesn't matter....do you honestly think that every man woman and child could possibly ever have the same ideas, standards, morals, or values? We are doomed! To quote Puissance: "Hail the Mushroom Cloud!".

KEITH = Like I said previously on this roundtable, there’s not thing one you can do about it, especially in a country like America where the government has become SO truly omnipotent, that they can trace your every move, if they want... We are living in a George Orwell Night Terror, we are SO far beyond the concept of big brother...the government’s activities can be so well concealed if they deem it to be done that no newspaper, no Woodward and Bernstein, can undermine a truly classified governmental operation if they so will it to be hidden...Since the Nixon administration, and ESPECIALLY in these past 2 years... I am certain that the US government cannot be overthrown...sure we’ll all probably die of weaponized Ebola or a nuclear terroristic act, but the government of this country will remain intact...There is nothing we can do...the only solution I have come to is to live an apathetic existence as hedonistically as I can, doing what I want (Eternal Darkness Creations, album trading and such) walking a low key, solitary existence, like the real humans living among the pod people in the Invasion of the Body Snatchers, stay under the radar and keep your ideas to yourself...make your own corner of the world what you want and then when the government finally does come for you, just simply blow your brains out...



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DALE = Don’t you love how one and two member bands write on their demos all guitars, vocals and “beats” performed by _________ to try and fool or disguise they are using a shitty drum machine? Or they will be even more ambiguous saying all “all vocals and instruments” performed by BLANK …

JEFFREY = Some people honestly don't care as much as others. If someone says "beats" then they are obviously implying a drum machine. All implies nothing. If you can hear the difference then it is their lack of professionalism shining through. If you can't, who cares?

CATH = Hahaha, I’ve never seen the word ‘beats’, or have never noticed it. But that’s very funny. But you know, there was a trend right after Burzum which consisted in being a one-man band and doing all instruments. An attempt to make the drum machine a good thing. There’s nothing like a drummer hitting on drums – well, no drum machine would replace the energy and feeling you get when you drum.

KEITH = You guys are gonna think I am a real jackass, and this isn’t always the case but sometimes I like the sound of a drum machine...what I SHOULD say is I don’t necessarily focus on the drums anyway, I ALWAYS prefer the sound of real drums but sometimes in their absence I feel drum machines serve their purpose, on demos at least, but the time you’re an album calibre band you should have situated with a drummer, the whole purpose of demos is to DEMOnstrate your ideas and vision, not being polished, but being extremely raw...remember the first Hellwitch demo? It was Pat on guitar and vox and his college roomate playing phonebooks!!! Just one question...I have heard the words “drums”, “percussion”, “nuclear penetrator hammers” but WHO IN THE FUKKING HELL uses the term “beats”? And may I take an AXE TO THEIR SKULL?!?!?!?!

B.C. = Hahaha....well said! I have always found this particularly annoying. Yes, the classic "all vocals and instruments" is generally a dead giveaway that there are no real drums to be found anywhere on the recording! I hate drum machines, especially the ones that sound like some gay pop-electro crap. The really funny thing is when bands pretend to insist that they will never have a live drummer because the like the "anti-human" sound of mechanized drums. Which simply means they cannot find a skillful drummer. I believe Mysticum used a line similar to that once. How stupid.

FILIP = I think such behaviour is gay.

DALE = Jeffrey and Keith are drum machine sympathizing poofters! J As far as what Jeffrey mentioned, well I for one care because I am already busy enough, fucking reviewing at least 300 or more items per issue, now I have to listen to certain releases way more times than I need to to make sure it is not just some lazy or untalented drummer looping his shit to a click track (which helps in itself to make drummers sound robotic) ad infinitum. Because I do take some pride in not being misinformed in my reviews and if I accuse a band of being lame because they have a useless drum machine (these should only ever be used for home demos when writing music or for rehearsing purposes) unless I am 100 % sure that it really is a drum machine. Everything is sounding so gay and mechanical since the advent of “Pro Tools”, it made it affordable to sound like computerized audio candy. So do not, play fucking child games writing shit like that on your demo you stupid cocksuckers!!



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KEITH = What do you think about GW Bush and his push for a war in the middle east? Do you think there will be a war on the western front too, with North Korea? Are any of you scared to be living in an ever worsening world? And what do you think of George W Napoleon's thirst for power?

B.C. = Yes, I am a bit worried, but do not know enough about it all to comment intelligently. I do not read the jewspaper or watch the news. I am almost completely out of touch with society much of the time. It's great! Though, it does sound like it is getting worse and worse and why the fuck hasn't this army leveled other countries by now? I don't understand why it has gotten this bad. Ugh...we are too PC to even bomb sand-niggers and other such scum from the planet. It's sad.

FILIP = Well, the war is taking place now. I think it is out of question that as Bush as French and German politics see their own business in Iraq. But I support the war against the dumb fuck and his servants that fool and rule the Iraq. USA fight the East not only to set the Iraq’s society free but also to fix its own business. I really understand it. It’s just fine with me they also genocide dumb inventors of false ideologies. I do not support ideologies which fool and cheat people: religious or politic – they all should be banned.

DALE = Well Keith you have a talent for stirring the shit until we can no longer stand the smell. Now let me start off by saying I am no peace loving wimp and when used for the right reasons (money is certainly not one) war can be a great thing. However, what the US gov’t is doing with this war in Iraq is nothing more than a power grab and a money grab. Also you heard it here first that I think before long the US will also invade Syria & Iran, and who knows who else from there, the US wants control of the Middle East. Before this Iraq war the chief countries to my knowledge receiving Iraqi oil are France and Russia.

The US has been hailing Saddam as a dictator, a tormentor, a terrorist, a butcher and on and on (even though it was the US that funded him and built him up during the Iran/Iraq war but their little puppet Saddam cut his strings), so we could not buy oil from a country with this man in charge. So what is the solution? Remove him and put in a new friendly regime that is firmly under the US governments thumb and *poof* it is not only acceptable to buy their oil, the US will paint the rose coloured picture that they are buying oil (at dirt cheap prices of course) in order to help the new regime in Iraq “re-build” the country. Nice huh? Now they are hero’s and their shit does not stink. A little bit of trivia some may not know is that besides Colon Powell, every person in Bush’s cabinet, including Bush himself was at one time in the past either a President of an oil company or a drug manufacturing company, chew on that for a minute. I mean I see that as the main factor but surely not the only factor. There is the revenge factor for the Gulf War as we have been seen as weak from within our country and without for not crushing Saddam then and George W. also wants to kick some ass for Daddy.

Another factor for me is our ridiculous and continual support of Israel, I see this working it’s way into things, we are striking another blow for Israel by attacking Iraq. Ultimately what we are doing is making the entire middle east hate us just that much more and those that were on the fence about it will jump off the fence into the American hate side. There is no honour in this war. Even the Iraqi people, some of them like us now we bring them food and what the hell
20 plus years under Saddam they want a change regardless but mark my words, 5 years from now they will all be shouting for our blood again (many are now but you will not see that on American tv). Their children and most of the children across the middle east will grow to hate us even more than their parents did. I support war in general. I do not support greed and lies and that is what this war with Iraq is built upon. I could go on for ages about stuff like the fact we are attacking Iraq because they “defy the United Nations”, even though by us going in alone with England against the will of the U.N., we are also “defying the United Nations”, so who is worse?

Truly it is amazing the propaganda that is going on in the mass media in the US, you can turn to 15 different channels and watch the news and every one is showing the same footage, describing everything with the same words (like a script), all are using the exact same catch phrases and the average American is eating it up. I watched the BBC World news and the Canadian National News it was a very different story they showed many Iraqi citizens that did not want the US there, they showed tons of footage of destruction of civilian property, injuries to civilians and they showed many civilian deaths. All of which the US gov’t and the US mass corporate media is claiming is not happening and does not exist. Here they show the soldiers giving people food, well if some foreign army went into the ghetto in Philadelphia with free food and shit, the scene would be the same regardless. Then you watch the interviews with average Americans on the street and they are so brainwashed saying everything word for word they heard on the news acting like the gov’t can do no wrong and on top of that it is easy to see why they hate us as many Americans are beating their chests saying “we are bigger and stronger and will kick their asses!”, “We carry the biggest stick and we are righteous because we have power!”, fucking mindless pompous red necks. My wife’s relatives came over and they were acting the same way and even a couple of close contacts of mine shocked me with this kind of behaviour in Emails.

One day years from now this attitude may well be the US’s downfall. It is truly incredulous what has been going on here in the US, for those outside the US reading this, before the war the media poles across the nation had the people voting close to 50% for and 50% against the war. But an interesting thing happened the government and in turn their puppet media started accusing people that were against the war as being “traitors to their country” and that by not supporting the war they were “committing treason”, well it was amazing after only a couple of weeks of this shit, the poles suddenly were 80% for the war. That is democracy and free speech in action for you. The United S(nakes)tates Of America is a Capitalist Dictatorship being disguised as a supposed democracy. The countries we should be worried about if anything are China and North Korea. I am just getting started but I have went on too long already and you guys need some room to talk too. Haha.

JEFFREY = I have to admit that I was one of those contacts you speak of Dale that surprised you with my pro-war attitude. At the time of my writing that tirade I have cooled down somewhat and grown increasingly complacent. I am mainly provoked by all of these anti-war rallies across the entire planet and especially these Hollywood icons = morons that stand on their soap boxes to spread their fucking peacenik philosophy. Not only are almost all of them uninformed but they are hypocrites! A man once told me that Hollywood has more mirrors than anywhere else and I didn’t quite understand it at the time but now I’ve come to realize what he meant. That certain groups of entertainment’s elite represent entire classes or herds of the worlds sheep.

We even have the ghetto represented now with all the gangsta dolts riding on the crest of the hip hop culture explosion. Anyway, beyond that I have always been against this country’s political actions and have never trusted anything controlled by them. That’s just common sense to me but when you look at this war and gloss the media is shining it up with currently (Sadaam’s statue was just pulled down yesterday) who cares? Fuck those heebs! Like Keith says in the next paragraph, Mohammed was not a peace monger. He preached killing us all because we were all heathens in his eyes. Good! I’m proud of it. When they finally grew bold enough (or were allowed) to attack our country on 9/11 the rules changed.

KEITH = I actually have a few things to say about this question, even though I was the one who posed it in the first place...I think war is necessary, we have enflamed the islamic world so much with all of the rhetoric (without any substantive action) since 9/11 that war is NOW a necessity...my only question is, why in THE HELL are we even considering fighting by conventional means, i.e. ground troops invading Iraq? Hundreds of thousands of US men and women are now deployed ready to walk into a slaughterhouse...beating the Hell out of Iraq in 1991 gave the powers that be (that will unfortunately be NO WHERE near any of the fighting or the reciprocity of said fighting) the “right” to flex their muscles like Popeye on PCP, but I have a feeling that when this war finally does start, the shit is going to hit the fan BIG TIME...

Colon (spelt wrong intentionally because like a large intestine he is full of flatulence and shit) Powell sits on C Span saying “Well the Iraqi’s were too scared to deploy weapons of mass destruction (meaning chemical and biological weapons) in the gulf war, I’d ask anybody who thinks this to talk to someone who has been diagnosed with “Gulf War Syndrome” about their feelings of Saddam Hussien’s strict adherence to the Geneva Convention and the rules of engagement therein... Then Mr. Powell goes on to the REAL tragedy of the first gulf war, the burning of the iraqi oil fields and the devastation to the environment...what in the hell does this administration care about the environment...this is what is called in political science as BULL-FUKKING-SHIT...This administration is so full of themselves and so full of shit (which is one in the same) that they actually have the American people believing that our troops are going to sweep in for a quick and easy victory, I hope to whatever fukking deity is listening, that is the case, but I really don’t think it will be...and that the only threat is that the environment will be so irreplaceably damaged by Iraq’s oil fields going up like a tinderbox... sniff sniff...America has the fire power to annihilate this world several times over, and unlike the former Soviet Union, a large majority of our warheads have been maintained since Glasnost...through drone aircraft, offshore bombardment and yes nuclear assaults against Iraq we could achieve an easy and safe victory, who fucking cares what the French government says. WE ARE the omnipotent power in this world, why we care enough about what these whining little kuntry’s in Europe that we’ve had to bail out of the last two world wars, say about us being Imperialist bastards, care enough to send in tens of thousands of our troops, just to look “politcally correct” is beyond me...fukking send an ICBM with a 50 kiloton warhead in it to the center of Main and 1st street in down town Bagdahd, and then see what these fucking subhuman slime have to say about it.... Then or even before hand (why we haven’t done it already is beyond me) deport EVERY Islamic from the USA...

Bloody hell Bush has used the rest of the constitution as a piece of toilet paper (as Dale to astutely points out) why not begin to trample on the right to religion? The right to religion that the Koran itself called for the death to the infidels (thats us!)...If I wrote a book and sold as many copies as have been sold of the Koran... well look at a book like the Turner Diaries, it was written 30 years ago but everyone linked it too what happened in Oklahoma city where 160 people died...ooooohhh bad Dr Pierce, ooooohhh, but the Koran has been nothing but become MORE popular in the eyes of this multicultural shit country since over THREE THOUSAND people were killed in a blatant and admitted homage to it... Read your history books kids, Mohammed wasn’t some peace loving, pot smoking hippy, he was a war mongering bastard that wanted nothing more than the death of all those who opposed his word...fukk em, nuke the hell out of Iraq, pave it over and put a McDonalds right smack dab in the middle of it, hell do the same to North Korea, except make that one a Long John Silvers...I love their variety platters.

JEFFREY = GWB is an increasingly ignorant man. 10 years and he's the next post-term Reagan. The middle east debacle has been brewing for decades. I remember the Col. Kadafi toilet paper from when I was very young. Now we have Osama Bin Laden urinal screens. Novelties. That's all the whole mess is to me. It's controlled and it's acted. What can I fucking do about it? Bush you stupid fucking asshole! Pull our troops out of their like you should have done after the motherfucking Gulf War and just let them battle in peace already!!! Stupid fucking redneck president of shit!!

DALE = I have to end this by saying preach on Jeffrey, I could not agree more with what you just said above. HELL YES!